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Well in that case... IF a company shortchanges safety to beat someone to market... I think a good look at corporate personhood is in order. If a company cause

Well in that case... IF a company shortchanges safety to beat someone to market... I think a good look at corporate personhood is in order. If a company causes deaths due to their rush to get a product to market, charge the company, and if guilty, the board at the time of the crime must serve the sentence. Do that, and you'd see a lot less shitty behavior from corporations.

colechristensen 7y ago
It is very easy to do a post hoc accusation, “look it’s obvious, they experienced a failure in their new product therefore it was rushed to market” and then make everybody feel good about putting the bad guys away. But that doesn’t get you safety or improvements. You can’t test anything infinitely, you can’t predict the future, all you can do is have standards and processes and a willingness to learn from mistakes. Putting the “bad guys” away doesn’t help anybody decide when ready is ready. Turning collections of mistakes into crimes doesn’t prevent future mistakes. Fear doesn’t prevent mistakes it encourages them. Looking at everything that goes wrong as a crime makes more go wrong not less.
- magduf 7y ago
  >But that doesn’t get you safety or improvements. Yes, it does, because it makes people accountable for their actions and makes them fear punishment, so they'll avoid criminal actions in the first place. >You can’t test anything infinitely, you can’t predict the future, all you can do is have standards and processes and a willingness to learn from mistakes. Sounds great, so why didn't Boeing and the FAA do that? That's the thing that makes them criminally liable. "Bad guys" are supposed to get put away when they intentionally do things that get people hurt or killed. This is called "criminal negligence", which is what Boeing is guilty of. People don't go to jail for mere accidents; they have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to have acted negligent to a criminal degree (i.e., usually intentionally). Boeing intentionally made design decisions that were contrary to safety, and then intentionally tried to hide what had happened and keep the planes in the air even though they were deadly. >Turning collections of mistakes into crimes doesn’t prevent future mistakes. Yes, it does, when those "mistakes" were criminal negligence. That's why we have laws that makes these mistakes criminal.
  - colechristensen 7y ago
    Fear of punishment means a culture of preventing punishment by never admitting failure, never “ratting” any colleagues out for failure, and treating investigators like enemies. Look at police and healthcare to see how badly your strategy works. You are passing a lot of judgement with almost no information besides a few newspaper articles cashing in on the public interest by speculating. I am either not selling the idea of an open culture towards failure very well or such conversations really attract people who like blame, vengeance, and pitchforks.
    - magduf 7y ago
      I'm not proposing punishing people for making mistakes, I'm claiming that punishing people for criminal negligence is absolutely useful, and the court system thankfully agrees. Is this really a hard concept for you? >You are passing a lot of judgement with almost no information besides a few newspaper articles cashing in on the public interest by speculating. Bullshit. There has been more that sufficient information unearthed in the last half-year or so about the criminal negligence that Boeing committed, and how the FAA simply looked the other way. This is not arguable at this point.
      - colechristensen 7y ago
        People who care about blaming and punishing are focusing on vengeance instead of prevention. You are just so incredibly certain. Why have investigations at all, magduf knows. And after the blaming and punishment is decided, people with that attitude don’t care about the issue any more. Problem solved until the next thing happens and we need to hang somebody new.
        magduf 7y ago
        Your response is obnoxious and patronizing, and you can shove it. Yes, I do know. It's been in the news for the better part of a year now; the causes of these plane crashes have been thoroughly investigated, and completely publicized. We know full well exactly why these crashes happened now, and the decisions that led up them. So yes, punishment is completely warranted when it's been proven that these hundreds of lives were lost because of willful criminal negligence. Do you work for Boeing or something?

colechristensen 7y ago

It is very easy to do a post hoc accusation, “look it’s obvious, they experienced a failure in their new product therefore it was rushed to market” and then make everybody feel good about putting the bad guys away. But that doesn’t get you safety or improvements. You can’t test anything infinitely, you can’t predict the future, all you can do is have standards and processes and a willingness to learn from mistakes. Putting the “bad guys” away doesn’t help anybody decide when ready is ready. Turning collections of mistakes into crimes doesn’t prevent future mistakes. Fear doesn’t prevent mistakes it encourages them. Looking at everything that goes wrong as a crime makes more go wrong not less.

magduf 7y ago
>But that doesn’t get you safety or improvements. Yes, it does, because it makes people accountable for their actions and makes them fear punishment, so they'll avoid criminal actions in the first place. >You can’t test anything infinitely, you can’t predict the future, all you can do is have standards and processes and a willingness to learn from mistakes. Sounds great, so why didn't Boeing and the FAA do that? That's the thing that makes them criminally liable. "Bad guys" are supposed to get put away when they intentionally do things that get people hurt or killed. This is called "criminal negligence", which is what Boeing is guilty of. People don't go to jail for mere accidents; they have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to have acted negligent to a criminal degree (i.e., usually intentionally). Boeing intentionally made design decisions that were contrary to safety, and then intentionally tried to hide what had happened and keep the planes in the air even though they were deadly. >Turning collections of mistakes into crimes doesn’t prevent future mistakes. Yes, it does, when those "mistakes" were criminal negligence. That's why we have laws that makes these mistakes criminal.
- colechristensen 7y ago
  Fear of punishment means a culture of preventing punishment by never admitting failure, never “ratting” any colleagues out for failure, and treating investigators like enemies. Look at police and healthcare to see how badly your strategy works. You are passing a lot of judgement with almost no information besides a few newspaper articles cashing in on the public interest by speculating. I am either not selling the idea of an open culture towards failure very well or such conversations really attract people who like blame, vengeance, and pitchforks.
  - magduf 7y ago
    I'm not proposing punishing people for making mistakes, I'm claiming that punishing people for criminal negligence is absolutely useful, and the court system thankfully agrees. Is this really a hard concept for you? >You are passing a lot of judgement with almost no information besides a few newspaper articles cashing in on the public interest by speculating. Bullshit. There has been more that sufficient information unearthed in the last half-year or so about the criminal negligence that Boeing committed, and how the FAA simply looked the other way. This is not arguable at this point.
    - colechristensen 7y ago
      People who care about blaming and punishing are focusing on vengeance instead of prevention. You are just so incredibly certain. Why have investigations at all, magduf knows. And after the blaming and punishment is decided, people with that attitude don’t care about the issue any more. Problem solved until the next thing happens and we need to hang somebody new.
      - magduf 7y ago
        Your response is obnoxious and patronizing, and you can shove it. Yes, I do know. It's been in the news for the better part of a year now; the causes of these plane crashes have been thoroughly investigated, and completely publicized. We know full well exactly why these crashes happened now, and the decisions that led up them. So yes, punishment is completely warranted when it's been proven that these hundreds of lives were lost because of willful criminal negligence. Do you work for Boeing or something?