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Sleep is very very important, and I've learned this the hard way. Sleeping well has been a challenge, and I am glad I'm not alone. Articles like this one and b

by yati 7y ago

Sleep is very very important, and I've learned this the hard way. Sleeping well has been a challenge, and I am glad I'm not alone. Articles like this one and books like Why We Sleep however make me very anxious, since all they seem to do is point out how bad it is if one doesn't get enough sleep. I know that. How can I fix it? I had CBT based sleep therapy last year, and things have since improved, but not much. Then I have the occasional random doctors who tell me how sleep is actually not that important and how they used to sleep only 3h/day when they were my age. Even the cult book Why We Sleep has chapter after chapter of telling me how screwed I am because I don't sleep 8-9 h/day, with little actionable items that can help me. I get that it is super important to raise awareness about sleep, but every time I open such articles, I am invariably made anxious about my sleep, and people who know what I'm talking about know how hard it is to sleep with anxiety about your sleep. Sorry for my rant :(

brador 7y ago
Truth is the solution to your problems is a 2 page bullet pointed list of actionable items that work. For which you wouldn’t even pay $1 because there’s no way to verify the information before buying and once it’s out it’s out so there’s no profit in creating it. Solve it yourself or throw real money at the problem if you actually care.
- LeonB 7y ago
  I have just such a 2 page bullet point list here: https://til.secretgeek.net/sleep/Getting_to_sleep_and_staying_asleep.html https://til.secretgeek.net/sleep/Getting_to_sleep_and_stayin... Also recommend Meditation, PMR (progressive muscle relaxation) and listening to binaural beats (via Spotify). And wish you well :)
  - brador 7y ago
    5 and 6 clash. 10 is wrong. Binaurals foster dependency, do not use. Add focused breathing.
    - hanley 7y ago
      > Add focused breathing. 5 minutes of box breathing (4 seconds inhale, 4 hold, 4 exhale, 4 hold) has been very helpful at calming my mind and feeling more ready to fall asleep.
    - LeonB 7y ago
      10 is: “ Finish workouts at least 2 to 3 hours before sleep. (Exercise generally will improve sleep. Good sleep will powerfully improve exercise)” How is this “wrong” ? My source is “Why We Sleep” by Dr Matt Walker. I’m happy to read other sources.
noneeeed 7y ago
Something that helped me with my insomnia was to fix my waking schedule. I rigged up a low power beside light on a timer, a radio alarm clock and an alarm clock. I set each to come on about 5 minutes after the one before, with the radio tuned to BBC Radio 4 which is a speech station. That made my waking up routine much more gentle, I felt better when I woke up, and subsequently seemed to sleep better. Now I have one of those Philips Lumi wake up lights/radios which does the same kind of thing. People make the mistake of just focusing on going to sleep, and not enough on the fact that sleep is just one part of a whole daily cycle, and looking at the whole day, at things like what and when you eat/drink, can really help. Recently I've been eating too late in the evening and it's been screwing up my routines.
driverdan 7y ago
It sounds like you have a problem with high anxiety. Have you spoken with a mental health professional about it? Anxiety can impact your ability to sleep.
slothtrop 7y ago
> telling me how screwed I am because I don't sleep 8-9 h/day I think, more accurately, 7-8. For many of us, 9 hours is just too much time and will erode sleep efficiency, such that we develop maintenance or onset problems. I've had long struggles and generally sleep consistently well now. Largest contributors to my improvement, through experimentation, have been: consistent waking time, strongly alleviating anxiety through CBT and activities such as yoga and exercise, vitamin d3+k2 & sunshine during the day, restricting coffee consumption to 1 cup (don't underestimate this it as caffeine boosts cortisol), and not least of which, eliminating porn consumption. I'm not sure why the latter has been so impactful but it has had a strong, predictable impact on onset latency. The rest is just the usual good practices, keep your room dark and comfortable and have a wind-down routine away from electronics.
rootusrootus 7y ago
I know how you feel. I try so hard to sanitize my sleep environment, set myself up for a good night's sleep, everything as recommended, etc. Then I go to bed at 10:00PM ... and wake up at 2:00AM like clockwork. Lay there for 1.5-2 hours, fall back asleep just in time to get woken up after really hard sleep by the alarm at 5:00AM, feeling like crap. Like I overslept. Knowing that I certainly didn't get the 7-8 hours of sleep that I should need. It's quite frustrating.
bitbuilder 7y ago
You sound exactly like how I felt before seeing a doctor about my insomnia. If you haven't already, I'd suggest just seeing a doctor, and asking for something that will help you sleep. I was given 50mg Trazodone, and I feel like it's saved my life. It's not a controlled substance, so doctors and nurse practitioners hand it out like candy. Now I get 8 hours of sleep a night, and most of the research I've dug up indicates it doesn't mess with your sleep architecture. There were some nasty side effects my first few weeks, but they seem to have faded over time. I spent months and months obsessively reading everything I could about how to improve my sleep. Tried it all. Tried every OTC supplement even rumored to improve sleep. Nothing helped. And the more time I spent stressing about it, the worse it got. By the time I saw a doctor I'd probably gone two weeks straight averaging 2-3 hours of sleep a night. I felt like a shell of a human being. Just asking for a pill might seem like an unhealthy cop out to some, but the improvement in my quality of life since doing so has been immeasurable since doing do.
- theNJR 7y ago
  Trazodone seems like a might big hammer for this problem. Do you plan to take it forever? I’d assume that removing it will cause withdrawal and a reversion to your previous insomnia. Or did your doctor suggest a plan of taking it for X months and then taper off? While the idea of a pill to fix this problem sounds really appealing to me, taking an SARI is not without risk.
  - theNJR 7y ago
    Some quick googling offers an interesting count point to my fear: https://academic.oup.com/brain/article/140/6/1768/3737867 https://academic.oup.com/brain/article/140/6/1768/3737867
    - theNJR 7y ago
      An N of 6 study showing it doesnt just knock you out: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2211560 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2211560
theNJR 7y ago
Thank you!! This times one million. The two years running a startup destroyed my sleep. I’ve spent the last 1.5 years trying to fix it. I’ve had an Oura ring for almost a year and I rarely get more than 6 hours of total sleep per night. 5 hours is frequent. 7 hours is the most rare treat. I don’t have anxiety. I don’t feel overly stressed. I love the work I’m doing. Life is pretty good. Yet most nights, I’m up at 2am and it takes an hour to go back to sleep. Then I’m up around 6am and that’s that. I never set an alarm; I could sleep until 7 or 8 if I wanted to. Blue light glasses. No food after 4:30pm. Workouts every day in the morning. Phenibut is the only guarantee that I’ll get decent sleep (6.5 hours). This doesn’t knock you out and my Oura data shows I’m getting all sleep stages. I wake up feeling good to great. But I limit that 2-3 times per week. Meditation does help a bit. I’m going to go in for a sleep study. I am determined to fix this because it really decreases quality of life. Plus, as you said, the research shows what a huge long term impact this has. I am very dedicated and focused on my health and longevity, it’s annoying how much I am failing at one of the most important parts.

by yati 7y ago

brador 7y ago

Truth is the solution to your problems is a 2 page bullet pointed list of actionable items that work. For which you wouldn’t even pay $1 because there’s no way to verify the information before buying and once it’s out it’s out so there’s no profit in creating it. Solve it yourself or throw real money at the problem if you actually care.

LeonB 7y ago
I have just such a 2 page bullet point list here: https://til.secretgeek.net/sleep/Getting_to_sleep_and_staying_asleep.html https://til.secretgeek.net/sleep/Getting_to_sleep_and_stayin... Also recommend Meditation, PMR (progressive muscle relaxation) and listening to binaural beats (via Spotify). And wish you well :)
- brador 7y ago
  5 and 6 clash. 10 is wrong. Binaurals foster dependency, do not use. Add focused breathing.
  - hanley 7y ago
    > Add focused breathing. 5 minutes of box breathing (4 seconds inhale, 4 hold, 4 exhale, 4 hold) has been very helpful at calming my mind and feeling more ready to fall asleep.
  - LeonB 7y ago
    10 is: “ Finish workouts at least 2 to 3 hours before sleep. (Exercise generally will improve sleep. Good sleep will powerfully improve exercise)” How is this “wrong” ? My source is “Why We Sleep” by Dr Matt Walker. I’m happy to read other sources.

noneeeed 7y ago

Something that helped me with my insomnia was to fix my waking schedule. I rigged up a low power beside light on a timer, a radio alarm clock and an alarm clock. I set each to come on about 5 minutes after the one before, with the radio tuned to BBC Radio 4 which is a speech station. That made my waking up routine much more gentle, I felt better when I woke up, and subsequently seemed to sleep better. Now I have one of those Philips Lumi wake up lights/radios which does the same kind of thing. People make the mistake of just focusing on going to sleep, and not enough on the fact that sleep is just one part of a whole daily cycle, and looking at the whole day, at things like what and when you eat/drink, can really help. Recently I've been eating too late in the evening and it's been screwing up my routines.

driverdan 7y ago

It sounds like you have a problem with high anxiety. Have you spoken with a mental health professional about it? Anxiety can impact your ability to sleep.

slothtrop 7y ago

> telling me how screwed I am because I don't sleep 8-9 h/day I think, more accurately, 7-8. For many of us, 9 hours is just too much time and will erode sleep efficiency, such that we develop maintenance or onset problems. I've had long struggles and generally sleep consistently well now. Largest contributors to my improvement, through experimentation, have been: consistent waking time, strongly alleviating anxiety through CBT and activities such as yoga and exercise, vitamin d3+k2 & sunshine during the day, restricting coffee consumption to 1 cup (don't underestimate this it as caffeine boosts cortisol), and not least of which, eliminating porn consumption. I'm not sure why the latter has been so impactful but it has had a strong, predictable impact on onset latency. The rest is just the usual good practices, keep your room dark and comfortable and have a wind-down routine away from electronics.

rootusrootus 7y ago

I know how you feel. I try so hard to sanitize my sleep environment, set myself up for a good night's sleep, everything as recommended, etc. Then I go to bed at 10:00PM ... and wake up at 2:00AM like clockwork. Lay there for 1.5-2 hours, fall back asleep just in time to get woken up after really hard sleep by the alarm at 5:00AM, feeling like crap. Like I overslept. Knowing that I certainly didn't get the 7-8 hours of sleep that I should need. It's quite frustrating.

bitbuilder 7y ago

You sound exactly like how I felt before seeing a doctor about my insomnia. If you haven't already, I'd suggest just seeing a doctor, and asking for something that will help you sleep. I was given 50mg Trazodone, and I feel like it's saved my life. It's not a controlled substance, so doctors and nurse practitioners hand it out like candy. Now I get 8 hours of sleep a night, and most of the research I've dug up indicates it doesn't mess with your sleep architecture. There were some nasty side effects my first few weeks, but they seem to have faded over time. I spent months and months obsessively reading everything I could about how to improve my sleep. Tried it all. Tried every OTC supplement even rumored to improve sleep. Nothing helped. And the more time I spent stressing about it, the worse it got. By the time I saw a doctor I'd probably gone two weeks straight averaging 2-3 hours of sleep a night. I felt like a shell of a human being. Just asking for a pill might seem like an unhealthy cop out to some, but the improvement in my quality of life since doing so has been immeasurable since doing do.

theNJR 7y ago
Trazodone seems like a might big hammer for this problem. Do you plan to take it forever? I’d assume that removing it will cause withdrawal and a reversion to your previous insomnia. Or did your doctor suggest a plan of taking it for X months and then taper off? While the idea of a pill to fix this problem sounds really appealing to me, taking an SARI is not without risk.
- theNJR 7y ago
  Some quick googling offers an interesting count point to my fear: https://academic.oup.com/brain/article/140/6/1768/3737867 https://academic.oup.com/brain/article/140/6/1768/3737867
  - theNJR 7y ago
    An N of 6 study showing it doesnt just knock you out: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2211560 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2211560

theNJR 7y ago

Thank you!! This times one million. The two years running a startup destroyed my sleep. I’ve spent the last 1.5 years trying to fix it. I’ve had an Oura ring for almost a year and I rarely get more than 6 hours of total sleep per night. 5 hours is frequent. 7 hours is the most rare treat. I don’t have anxiety. I don’t feel overly stressed. I love the work I’m doing. Life is pretty good. Yet most nights, I’m up at 2am and it takes an hour to go back to sleep. Then I’m up around 6am and that’s that. I never set an alarm; I could sleep until 7 or 8 if I wanted to. Blue light glasses. No food after 4:30pm. Workouts every day in the morning. Phenibut is the only guarantee that I’ll get decent sleep (6.5 hours). This doesn’t knock you out and my Oura data shows I’m getting all sleep stages. I wake up feeling good to great. But I limit that 2-3 times per week. Meditation does help a bit. I’m going to go in for a sleep study. I am determined to fix this because it really decreases quality of life. Plus, as you said, the research shows what a huge long term impact this has. I am very dedicated and focused on my health and longevity, it’s annoying how much I am failing at one of the most important parts.