4 ms·

I don't disagree, this is a great example. I think d&d can work in special cases where the distance for the item to travel is not too small (so that you wouldn'

by js8 7y ago

I don't disagree, this is a great example. I think d&d can work in special cases where the distance for the item to travel is not too small (so that you wouldn't move things by accident), but it is also not uncomfortably far away so that you don't see the target and have to navigate to it while you're d&d-ing. I guess these limiting factors are what makes it tricky to get right. But what about selecting a card and being able to move it around with the keyboard?

The_rationalist 7y ago
Less ergonomic and most people don't use the keyboard anyway.
- js8 7y ago
  We know very well that well-designed keyboard UI can run circles around mouse-based one in a typical application. If you're a user of a "Kanban board", you're not some aunt with a phone, you are most likely in the office and you can learn to use the keyboard productively in the productivity app you use every day.
  - josteink 7y ago
    > If you're a user of a "Kanban board", you're not some aunt with a phone No. Instead it means you are a project manager, and that often implies that your technical skills are on the same level as that aunt, maybe slightly better, but not by much. > you are most likely in the office and you can learn to use the keyboard Or just keep using drag'n'drop which is the established pattern, which also works really well for this, with the mouse you already have in the office.
    - js8 7y ago
      > No. Instead it means you are a project manager, and that often implies that your technical skills are on the same level as that aunt, maybe slightly better, but not by much. I am not a PM so I couldn't care less, but I think this is really condescending to people who work in that role. If you're a knowledge worker, it's your responsibility to make yourself familiar/efficient with the tools you use daily.
    - pmontra 7y ago
      > > If you're a user of a "Kanban board", you're not some aunt with a phone > No. Instead it means you are a project manager Actually there are no project managers using Kanbanize at that customer of mine. They have exactly one developer and currently three freelance developers working remotely. All of us use Kanbanize every day because it's the place where we write the specs of what we have to do. One of the partners use it to answer our questions but I don't think he moves cards around.
pmontra 7y ago
Click to select and move with arrow keys could be OK. We should measure times but my gut feeling is that if I already have my hand on the mouse or touchpad (in my case it's always a touchpad) then I can keep using it to move the card around without the extra time to reach for the keys. Gut feeling again: the keyboard could be more effective on larger distances because each tap of a key is a full movement of one row or one column, and no mistakes. People using a mouse probably need more time to release the mouse and move their hand back to the keyboard, unless they are left handed: mouse on the left and right hand already close to the arrow keys. About drag and drop: it's a mess if you can't see both source and destination at the same time. Then you drag hoping to be headed into the right direction. A right click menu could be better in those cases.
- tremon 7y ago
  Click to select and move with arrow keys could be OK Oh god no. Like you already state, most people operate both the mouse and the arrow keys with the right hand, so your proposal adds a lot of unnecessary movement. It could work with click to select and with WSAD keys, but most office users wouldn't discover that mode. I would much prefer navigation keys (arrow keys, page up/down, home, end) to select, shift+navigation keys to move.
  - pmontra 7y ago
    My proposal was probably not very clear. The idea is to allow both mouse and keyboard navigation. Which combination of arrows? I'd add hjkl to the list (vi and rogue like games.)
josteink 7y ago
> But what about selecting a card and being able to move it around with the keyboard? So when someone suggests drag-n-drop works bad on touch/mobile, you suggest another operation which relies on a keyboard as a potential improvement? Come on. This would make things even worse.

by js8 7y ago

The_rationalist 7y ago

Less ergonomic and most people don't use the keyboard anyway.

js8 7y ago
We know very well that well-designed keyboard UI can run circles around mouse-based one in a typical application. If you're a user of a "Kanban board", you're not some aunt with a phone, you are most likely in the office and you can learn to use the keyboard productively in the productivity app you use every day.
- josteink 7y ago
  > If you're a user of a "Kanban board", you're not some aunt with a phone No. Instead it means you are a project manager, and that often implies that your technical skills are on the same level as that aunt, maybe slightly better, but not by much. > you are most likely in the office and you can learn to use the keyboard Or just keep using drag'n'drop which is the established pattern, which also works really well for this, with the mouse you already have in the office.
  - js8 7y ago
    > No. Instead it means you are a project manager, and that often implies that your technical skills are on the same level as that aunt, maybe slightly better, but not by much. I am not a PM so I couldn't care less, but I think this is really condescending to people who work in that role. If you're a knowledge worker, it's your responsibility to make yourself familiar/efficient with the tools you use daily.
  - pmontra 7y ago
    > > If you're a user of a "Kanban board", you're not some aunt with a phone > No. Instead it means you are a project manager Actually there are no project managers using Kanbanize at that customer of mine. They have exactly one developer and currently three freelance developers working remotely. All of us use Kanbanize every day because it's the place where we write the specs of what we have to do. One of the partners use it to answer our questions but I don't think he moves cards around.

pmontra 7y ago

Click to select and move with arrow keys could be OK. We should measure times but my gut feeling is that if I already have my hand on the mouse or touchpad (in my case it's always a touchpad) then I can keep using it to move the card around without the extra time to reach for the keys. Gut feeling again: the keyboard could be more effective on larger distances because each tap of a key is a full movement of one row or one column, and no mistakes. People using a mouse probably need more time to release the mouse and move their hand back to the keyboard, unless they are left handed: mouse on the left and right hand already close to the arrow keys. About drag and drop: it's a mess if you can't see both source and destination at the same time. Then you drag hoping to be headed into the right direction. A right click menu could be better in those cases.

tremon 7y ago
Click to select and move with arrow keys could be OK Oh god no. Like you already state, most people operate both the mouse and the arrow keys with the right hand, so your proposal adds a lot of unnecessary movement. It could work with click to select and with WSAD keys, but most office users wouldn't discover that mode. I would much prefer navigation keys (arrow keys, page up/down, home, end) to select, shift+navigation keys to move.
- pmontra 7y ago
  My proposal was probably not very clear. The idea is to allow both mouse and keyboard navigation. Which combination of arrows? I'd add hjkl to the list (vi and rogue like games.)

josteink 7y ago

> But what about selecting a card and being able to move it around with the keyboard? So when someone suggests drag-n-drop works bad on touch/mobile, you suggest another operation which relies on a keyboard as a potential improvement? Come on. This would make things even worse.