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Microsoft has the same setup for Azure. >Get a physically isolated instance of Azure for your cloud computing services—operated by 21Vianet, a company based in

Microsoft has the same setup for Azure. >Get a physically isolated instance of Azure for your cloud computing services—operated by 21Vianet, a company based in China. Besides censorship and spying on users, China probably doesn't want it's company's data hosted in a place the US's 3 letter agencies can access it via an NSL. https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/global-infrastructure/china/ https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/global-infrastructure/chin...

losteric 7y ago
AWS is working on it too. Internally, the region is very much treated as untrustworthy.
- etaioinshrdlu 7y ago
  Very interesting. Any additional info? Info that is maybe not public?
  - mey 7y ago
    AWS is very upfront about AWS China. See https://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/global-infrastructure/regional-product-services/ https://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/global-infrastructure/regio... and click AWS China Regions on the left side. I would be asking AWS about the future of AWS Hong Kong which has historically has had special freedoms from China. See current events for more on that. Typical issue is the ICP License ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICP_license https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICP_license ), which is why Western companies set up shop in Hong Kong.
    - sterlind 7y ago
      For now, like you say. If China decides to make one country one system, it's curtains for all the Western infrastructure and instances located there. Depending on how it goes down, it could be a big security/confidentiality issue for the data located or flowing through there. I'm hopeful China would have a lot to lose by pulling the plug, since Hong Kong is a valuable interface to the West, but it might happen sooner or later with how unstable geopolitics is becoming.
  - ninju 7y ago
    Actually ALL data centers hosted in China will be subject to data examination by the Ministry of Public Security https://www.chinalawblog.com/2019/10/chinas-new-cybersecurity-system-there-is-no-place-to-hide.html https://www.chinalawblog.com/2019/10/chinas-new-cybersecurit... The inspection team has complete access to the network system. Inspection can cover both the technical aspects of the network system and the data/information maintained on the servers. See Article 10. The inspectors can fully access the system and they are permitted to copy any data they find. See Article 15. The only restriction on the inspectors copying the data in your company’s system is that the inspectors must provide you with a receipt. Though Article 10 “restricts” access to matters involving national security, the definition of national security in China is so broad that there is no real limitation on what can be accessed, copied and removed.
neurostimulant 7y ago
Aren't foreign companies not allowed to operate in China without partnering with local companies? I think most (if not all) companies that sell services and digital products (online games, etc) operate this way.
- mey 7y ago
  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICP_license https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICP_license for more info on that issue.
- smueller1234 7y ago
  That's not the only possible model. You can also have wholly foreign owned Chinese subsidiaries in the free trade zone if you get the appropriate licenses granted. Forgot the details though, sorry. That setup is apparently relatively "easy" for trade with physical goods, our lawyers told us some years ago, but wanting to do e-commerce without selling physical items meant all sorts of additional licenses had to be sought, and since nobody had done that before, it was unclear whether it would go through. I remember a hilarious 24h trip to Shanghai because the Chinese law firm had found somebody who was well connected and willing to talk to us. It was somebody's cousin. In the day long meeting, the lawyers were entirely tight lipped and refused to give any legal opinion, merely reading the letter of the law back to us (which is not useful at all in China). The only person who was willing to give any guidance (and preciously little at that) was the cousin. It was simultaneously very serious, with lots of money at stake, hilarious, exhausting, exhilarating, difficult, full of (cultural, not legal) learnings, and very, very frustrating.
  - throwaway744678 7y ago
    > That setup is apparently relatively "easy" for trade with physical goods, our lawyers told us some years ago, [...] As someone who is going through this process currently (WFOE), the easiness of the thing was probably exaggerated by your lawyers ;). The most annoying thing is that it is quite hard to get a definitive answer of the kind of licenses one needs, who grants them, and especially the criteria to meet.

losteric 7y ago

AWS is working on it too. Internally, the region is very much treated as untrustworthy.

etaioinshrdlu 7y ago
Very interesting. Any additional info? Info that is maybe not public?
- mey 7y ago
  AWS is very upfront about AWS China. See https://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/global-infrastructure/regional-product-services/ https://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/global-infrastructure/regio... and click AWS China Regions on the left side. I would be asking AWS about the future of AWS Hong Kong which has historically has had special freedoms from China. See current events for more on that. Typical issue is the ICP License ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICP_license https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICP_license ), which is why Western companies set up shop in Hong Kong.
  - sterlind 7y ago
    For now, like you say. If China decides to make one country one system, it's curtains for all the Western infrastructure and instances located there. Depending on how it goes down, it could be a big security/confidentiality issue for the data located or flowing through there. I'm hopeful China would have a lot to lose by pulling the plug, since Hong Kong is a valuable interface to the West, but it might happen sooner or later with how unstable geopolitics is becoming.
- ninju 7y ago
  Actually ALL data centers hosted in China will be subject to data examination by the Ministry of Public Security https://www.chinalawblog.com/2019/10/chinas-new-cybersecurity-system-there-is-no-place-to-hide.html https://www.chinalawblog.com/2019/10/chinas-new-cybersecurit... The inspection team has complete access to the network system. Inspection can cover both the technical aspects of the network system and the data/information maintained on the servers. See Article 10. The inspectors can fully access the system and they are permitted to copy any data they find. See Article 15. The only restriction on the inspectors copying the data in your company’s system is that the inspectors must provide you with a receipt. Though Article 10 “restricts” access to matters involving national security, the definition of national security in China is so broad that there is no real limitation on what can be accessed, copied and removed.

neurostimulant 7y ago

Aren't foreign companies not allowed to operate in China without partnering with local companies? I think most (if not all) companies that sell services and digital products (online games, etc) operate this way.

mey 7y ago
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICP_license https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICP_license for more info on that issue.
smueller1234 7y ago
That's not the only possible model. You can also have wholly foreign owned Chinese subsidiaries in the free trade zone if you get the appropriate licenses granted. Forgot the details though, sorry. That setup is apparently relatively "easy" for trade with physical goods, our lawyers told us some years ago, but wanting to do e-commerce without selling physical items meant all sorts of additional licenses had to be sought, and since nobody had done that before, it was unclear whether it would go through. I remember a hilarious 24h trip to Shanghai because the Chinese law firm had found somebody who was well connected and willing to talk to us. It was somebody's cousin. In the day long meeting, the lawyers were entirely tight lipped and refused to give any legal opinion, merely reading the letter of the law back to us (which is not useful at all in China). The only person who was willing to give any guidance (and preciously little at that) was the cousin. It was simultaneously very serious, with lots of money at stake, hilarious, exhausting, exhilarating, difficult, full of (cultural, not legal) learnings, and very, very frustrating.
- throwaway744678 7y ago
  > That setup is apparently relatively "easy" for trade with physical goods, our lawyers told us some years ago, [...] As someone who is going through this process currently (WFOE), the easiness of the thing was probably exaggerated by your lawyers ;). The most annoying thing is that it is quite hard to get a definitive answer of the kind of licenses one needs, who grants them, and especially the criteria to meet.