6 ms·

> Permanent removal from China would probably be worse for freedom in China over 20 years, I'm curious about how you came to this conclusion.

Aperocky 7y ago
Because they would be replaced by local Chinese companies. Are you saying that would have no effect on freedom for the users?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- untog 7y ago
  If Apple capitulates to every demand the Chinese government makes then perhaps there isn’t much of a difference.
  - millstone 7y ago
    Right. But of course the Chinese government has asked Apple for a backdoor, and (to our knowledge) Apple has not provided that. So long as that's true, an iPhone really is one of the most secure option for Chinese residents.
    - fooker 7y ago
      > (to our knowledge) This is really the key phrase here. What we know for sure is: Google and Facebook services do not work in China while Apple and Microsoft's do.
    - virgilp 7y ago
      Actually, to our knowledge, they provided exactly that.
    - _-___________-_ 7y ago
      Apple is open about the fact that their cloud services are operated by a Chinese company in China. No Chinese company has the option of refusing government demands for access to information. Therefore, at least the cloud services should be considered backdoored.
awat 7y ago
Agreed, not to hijack, but I fail to see the that $ORG not being at the table Vs. them constantly redefining morality for their actions to be at the table to be a less worse outcome.
- Aloha 7y ago
  I think the act of them being at the table is more likely to move the needle on the Chinese side.
derefr 7y ago
For one thing, pretty much every Android device made for the Chinese market has had its OS adulterated in some way, at OEM build time, at the behest of the Chinese government. Whereas, Chinese resellers can't really adulterate an iPhone's OS; there's just the one OS image (per model), signed and sealed by Apple, and if China wants to put a rootkit on it, they'd have to convince Apple to put it into that same base-image where any random security researcher (outside of China's reach to quash publication) might find it. (And yes, either way the phone's baseband will be adulterated by Chinese ISPs at the government's behest, but modern smartphones isolate themselves from their baseband pretty well, so this only matters if you're using your phone as a phone [calling/texting], instead of as a tablet with a data modem.)
- SiVal 7y ago
  No point in debating the details of which tech is more secure or what is encrypted or adulterated or whatever. Apple has made it clear that they will make sure the Chinese gov't gets what it wants. Even in a supposedly "autonomous" Hong Kong, China complains and Apple submits--flags, apps, speech, whatever. No need to even go to court, and certainly no point. So Apple has made it clear that if China wants something, the tech details won't matter. "Oh, I'm sorry, we don't have that information to give you." "Well, start keeping it from now on, but don't tell them, because telling them would offend us, and you don't want that...."
  - millstone 7y ago
    It's not "whatever." Apple has removed emoji and an app; they don't provide the government with backdoors or biometric data. There really is a line.
    - jakelazaroff 7y ago
      Why do you think there's a line? What is that based on?
    - corodra 7y ago
      https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/apple-iphone-ipad-government-data-privacy-transparency-report-2018-a8697761.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/ne... 2018: "The iPhone maker’s latest Transparency Report reveals it received 32,342 demands from governments around the world to access 163,823 devices, with 80 per cent of the requests granted." Come on, seriously? This is what they ADMIT to worldwide. Here's on China: https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/cn.html https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/cn.html Again, what they admit to. And that's only on the second half of 2018. With all their regular anti-consumer practices on hardware, you're really going to imagine they're champions of individual freedoms and privacy?

Aperocky 7y ago

Because they would be replaced by local Chinese companies. Are you saying that would have no effect on freedom for the users?

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
untog 7y ago
If Apple capitulates to every demand the Chinese government makes then perhaps there isn’t much of a difference.
- millstone 7y ago
  Right. But of course the Chinese government has asked Apple for a backdoor, and (to our knowledge) Apple has not provided that. So long as that's true, an iPhone really is one of the most secure option for Chinese residents.
  - fooker 7y ago
    > (to our knowledge) This is really the key phrase here. What we know for sure is: Google and Facebook services do not work in China while Apple and Microsoft's do.
  - virgilp 7y ago
    Actually, to our knowledge, they provided exactly that.
  - _-___________-_ 7y ago
    Apple is open about the fact that their cloud services are operated by a Chinese company in China. No Chinese company has the option of refusing government demands for access to information. Therefore, at least the cloud services should be considered backdoored.

awat 7y ago

Agreed, not to hijack, but I fail to see the that $ORG not being at the table Vs. them constantly redefining morality for their actions to be at the table to be a less worse outcome.

Aloha 7y ago
I think the act of them being at the table is more likely to move the needle on the Chinese side.

derefr 7y ago

For one thing, pretty much every Android device made for the Chinese market has had its OS adulterated in some way, at OEM build time, at the behest of the Chinese government. Whereas, Chinese resellers can't really adulterate an iPhone's OS; there's just the one OS image (per model), signed and sealed by Apple, and if China wants to put a rootkit on it, they'd have to convince Apple to put it into that same base-image where any random security researcher (outside of China's reach to quash publication) might find it. (And yes, either way the phone's baseband will be adulterated by Chinese ISPs at the government's behest, but modern smartphones isolate themselves from their baseband pretty well, so this only matters if you're using your phone as a phone [calling/texting], instead of as a tablet with a data modem.)

SiVal 7y ago
No point in debating the details of which tech is more secure or what is encrypted or adulterated or whatever. Apple has made it clear that they will make sure the Chinese gov't gets what it wants. Even in a supposedly "autonomous" Hong Kong, China complains and Apple submits--flags, apps, speech, whatever. No need to even go to court, and certainly no point. So Apple has made it clear that if China wants something, the tech details won't matter. "Oh, I'm sorry, we don't have that information to give you." "Well, start keeping it from now on, but don't tell them, because telling them would offend us, and you don't want that...."
- millstone 7y ago
  It's not "whatever." Apple has removed emoji and an app; they don't provide the government with backdoors or biometric data. There really is a line.
  - jakelazaroff 7y ago
    Why do you think there's a line? What is that based on?
  - corodra 7y ago
    https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/apple-iphone-ipad-government-data-privacy-transparency-report-2018-a8697761.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/ne... 2018: "The iPhone maker’s latest Transparency Report reveals it received 32,342 demands from governments around the world to access 163,823 devices, with 80 per cent of the requests granted." Come on, seriously? This is what they ADMIT to worldwide. Here's on China: https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/cn.html https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/cn.html Again, what they admit to. And that's only on the second half of 2018. With all their regular anti-consumer practices on hardware, you're really going to imagine they're champions of individual freedoms and privacy?