7 ms·

The US isn't a closed market and can't effectively eject Apple from the market. While I disagree with the choice Apple made, it's a very rational one. Permanent

by Aloha 7y ago

The US isn't a closed market and can't effectively eject Apple from the market. While I disagree with the choice Apple made, it's a very rational one. Permanent removal from China would probably be worse for freedom in China over 20 years, and massively worse for Apple in the short term. No company should be expected to back or foment a revolution somewhere, from my perspective they're looking out for their own beet interest and the best interest of their customers.

bcrosby95 7y ago
> Permanent removal from China would probably be worse for freedom in China over 20 years, I'm curious about how you came to this conclusion.
- Aperocky 7y ago
  Because they would be replaced by local Chinese companies. Are you saying that would have no effect on freedom for the users?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - untog 7y ago
    If Apple capitulates to every demand the Chinese government makes then perhaps there isn’t much of a difference.
    - millstone 7y ago
      Right. But of course the Chinese government has asked Apple for a backdoor, and (to our knowledge) Apple has not provided that. So long as that's true, an iPhone really is one of the most secure option for Chinese residents.
      - fooker 7y ago
        > (to our knowledge) This is really the key phrase here. What we know for sure is: Google and Facebook services do not work in China while Apple and Microsoft's do.
      - virgilp 7y ago
        Actually, to our knowledge, they provided exactly that.
      - _-___________-_ 7y ago
        Apple is open about the fact that their cloud services are operated by a Chinese company in China. No Chinese company has the option of refusing government demands for access to information. Therefore, at least the cloud services should be considered backdoored.
- awat 7y ago
  Agreed, not to hijack, but I fail to see the that $ORG not being at the table Vs. them constantly redefining morality for their actions to be at the table to be a less worse outcome.
  - Aloha 7y ago
    I think the act of them being at the table is more likely to move the needle on the Chinese side.
- derefr 7y ago
  For one thing, pretty much every Android device made for the Chinese market has had its OS adulterated in some way, at OEM build time, at the behest of the Chinese government. Whereas, Chinese resellers can't really adulterate an iPhone's OS; there's just the one OS image (per model), signed and sealed by Apple, and if China wants to put a rootkit on it, they'd have to convince Apple to put it into that same base-image where any random security researcher (outside of China's reach to quash publication) might find it. (And yes, either way the phone's baseband will be adulterated by Chinese ISPs at the government's behest, but modern smartphones isolate themselves from their baseband pretty well, so this only matters if you're using your phone as a phone [calling/texting], instead of as a tablet with a data modem.)
  - SiVal 7y ago
    No point in debating the details of which tech is more secure or what is encrypted or adulterated or whatever. Apple has made it clear that they will make sure the Chinese gov't gets what it wants. Even in a supposedly "autonomous" Hong Kong, China complains and Apple submits--flags, apps, speech, whatever. No need to even go to court, and certainly no point. So Apple has made it clear that if China wants something, the tech details won't matter. "Oh, I'm sorry, we don't have that information to give you." "Well, start keeping it from now on, but don't tell them, because telling them would offend us, and you don't want that...."
    - millstone 7y ago
      It's not "whatever." Apple has removed emoji and an app; they don't provide the government with backdoors or biometric data. There really is a line.
      - jakelazaroff 7y ago
        Why do you think there's a line? What is that based on?
      - corodra 7y ago
        https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/apple-iphone-ipad-government-data-privacy-transparency-report-2018-a8697761.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/ne... 2018: "The iPhone maker’s latest Transparency Report reveals it received 32,342 demands from governments around the world to access 163,823 devices, with 80 per cent of the requests granted." Come on, seriously? This is what they ADMIT to worldwide. Here's on China: https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/cn.html https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/cn.html Again, what they admit to. And that's only on the second half of 2018. With all their regular anti-consumer practices on hardware, you're really going to imagine they're champions of individual freedoms and privacy?
curt15 7y ago
>Permanent removal from China would probably be worse for freedom in China over 20 years How does Apple advance freedom in China?
- Aloha 7y ago
  I'm presuming a local company would be even more willing to bend than Apple is, and would do so more often.
- millstone 7y ago
  Spyware is routinely found preinstalled on Chinese branded phones, and Chinese border guards will install spyware on tourists' Android phones. iPhone users are much better protected from this stuff. 1: https://www.cyberscoop.com/android-malware-china-huawei-zte-kryptowire-blu-products/ https://www.cyberscoop.com/android-malware-china-huawei-zte-... 2: https://9to5mac.com/2019/07/03/spyware/ https://9to5mac.com/2019/07/03/spyware/
  - CogitoCogito 7y ago
    Spyware is also found in iOS in China via iMessage so what’s your point?
    - sushicat 7y ago
      If we don’t talk about zero day vulnerability, which may be used by government to spy citizens, iMessage is end to end encrypted and secure. Chinese local chat app like WeChat, or customized Android from Xiaomi or Huawei, they have back doors, which allow Chinese gov access data directly. Spyware from unintentional vulnerability vs. intentional back doors are different.
      - _-___________-_ 7y ago
        If your phone is backed up to iCloud, and your phone (or iCloud account, it's not clear) has the region set to China, then your messages are most likely accessible by the Chinese government, because Apple's cloud services are operated by a Chinese company in China, and Chinese companies don't have the option of resisting information requests from the government.
bobthepanda 7y ago
How would permanent removal be worse? iMessage is not magically more free than other messaging apps available in China.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
rdlecler1 7y ago
Let’s call it what it is: bribery and corruption. It’s under the guise of market access, but it’s effectively still a payout by a government to do that you’re told. Apple wants to have it both ways, we are a moral authority in the US where we don’t have to worry about government interference but because we want access to the China market we’ll do whatever the government tells us to do. How much more dependent does China need to be before China can control other behavior it doesn’t like.
mortenjorck 7y ago
> Permanent removal from China would probably be worse for freedom in China over 20 years If there is one myth that the past couple of weeks have conclusively debunked, it is the idealistic conceit that the presence of western businesses in the Chinese market will inevitably liberalize China.
- inlined 7y ago
  I wonder if the backlash will form the opposite theory? Will people try to make the firewall bidirectional to prevent this type of global censorship?
- kelnos 7y ago
  Past couple of weeks? Developing China's economy and integrating it into world markets with the expectation that it would liberalize China has been a pipe dream for a good 30+ years now.
eddieplan9 7y ago
I honestly don't care when Apple complies with local law a la iCloud China. I think that is disappointing but completely reasonable, whether we agree with the law or not. However, Hong Kong is a special administration region, and has historically enjoyed high level of judicial independence. When Apple takes the clue from a Chinese government newspaper - not even a legal request - and do the CCP's bidding proactively, it crosses a line. This is not compliance. This is self-censor. You can argue that Hong Kong is part of China, and therefore Apple's operation in Hong Kong should comply with Chinese law. But what is next? China also claims sovereignty over Taiwan, will Apple self-censor Taiwanese App Store soon? Will Apple removes the Taiwanese flag from Taiwanese iOS users if China government demands so [1]? It's also sad to see Apple pushes back on US government requests because they can, and kowtows to the Chinese governments without their having to even sending a take-down request! If one day Apple fires some employee because the Chinese government thinks he/she "hurt Chinese people's feeling" in a personal tweet [2], I will not be surprised! [1] https://www.engadget.com/2019/10/09/apple-removes-taiwan-flag-emoji-from-ios-in-hong-kong/ https://www.engadget.com/2019/10/09/apple-removes-taiwan-fla... [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/nba/nba-statement-different-in-english-and-chinese/2019/10/07/81d9e55a-e8cc-11e9-a329-7378fbfa1b63_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/nba/nba-statement-diff...
- sushicat 7y ago
  Taiwan and Hong Kong are totally different cases. Taiwan is an independent country, no matter Chinese gov admits it or not. It has their own government, laws, military etc. Hong Kong is not, it’s only a special area belonging to China. When British handed it over to China years ago, China promised the situation will not change for 50 years. Although it’s a lie, it shows that China will have full control of HK eventually.
freeopinion 7y ago
> they're looking out for their own beet [sic] interest and the best interest of their customers I'm sure you think you just explained this, but it completely escaped me. How is yanking this app in the best interest of their customers? Let's break "their customers" into 3 groups: 1. Protestors in HK. It clearly isn't in their best interest . So not those customers, right? 2. Non-protestors in China (including HK). You're argument is that this way they can still enjoy Apple products? Even though those products can no longer be trusted not to betray them to any whim of a hostile government? 3. Customers outside China. The argument here seems to be that Apple makes lots of money in China and that an Apple that makes tons of money in China and outside of China is better for non-Chinese customers than an Apple that makes tons of money outside of China but not inside of China. This third group and justification is the most interesting to me. I stipulate that I have put words in your mouth. So let me take those words out of your mouth and just say this is the only way I can make sense of what you wrote. When I follow this train of thought the only way I can see it being true is if Apple's very existence is threatened if some other company were able to fill the void in China, then leverage that to gain so much market power outside of China that they could squash Apple. And even that alone doesn't make things worse for (former) Apple customers. The only way that would be worse is if this hypothetical competitor's products were actually worse than Apple's and only able to dominate the market because of the market power they enjoy due to Apple's absence in the Chinese market. That is such a stretch that I feel your argument should be dismissed. Can you fill in the holes of my understanding to help me see things your way? I think this is an extremely important discussion because it seems to be the mindset held by a lot of decision makers. Is the NBA worried that they will stop making many $millions if they don't expand into China? That is, not only will they not double or triple their profits; they will actually stop making money outside of China? Is Disney worried about this? Are Microsoft and Amazon? Is it a fight for survival? Or is it pure naked greed?
- freeopinion 7y ago
  Perhaps it could be argued that Apple is completely dependent on manufacturing facilities within China and losing that access would indeed be lethal. Some of Apple's biggest competitors outside China recognized that risk a long time ago and moved to minimize it. Why has Apple left themselves so vulnerable? Is it the only way they could produce inexpensively enough to stay competitive? Or is it, again, pure naked greed?
kerkeslager 7y ago
> Permanent removal from China would probably be worse for freedom in China over 20 years, Huh? > No company should be expected to back or foment a revolution somewhere, from my perspective they're looking out for their own beet interest and the best interest of their customers. Profit is not an adequate moral compass. I deeply disagree that by forming a corporation, individuals who would otherwise have ethical obligations are somehow no longer obligated to behave ethically. You're literally claiming that it's okay to enable the violation of human rights for profit.
- Aloha 7y ago
  Removal of an app is not enabling the violation of human rights. Now if Apple turned over the name and address of every person who had the app, that'd be the enabling of violating human rights.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    Especially seeing the app doesn’t do anything that the website can’t do.
    - kerkeslager 7y ago
      Did you visit the website? It's hella slow. I imagine the app cached a lot of the map data locally and used a native renderer.
      - scarface74 7y ago
        Isn't that more of implementation detail? I've seen a few browser based game demos that work well on the iPhone and caching can also be done on mobile. While an app may be better for low end Android phones from an optimization standpoint, there are no "low end" iPhones that have been introduced since 2013 that wouldn't have a decent enough processor to handle a web based, optimized app. I don't believe that more people -- especially on HN -- are focusing less on the web as a means to get around the "wall garden" than focusing on sideloading.
scarface74 7y ago
No, but the US can make it hard for certain companies by imposing tariffs that hurt certain industries and “investigating” companies that get on the wrong side. Do you think a Democratic administration would target companies run by the “liberal elite” or that a Republican administration would go after churches that are supporting political candidates?

by Aloha 7y ago

bcrosby95 7y ago

> Permanent removal from China would probably be worse for freedom in China over 20 years, I'm curious about how you came to this conclusion.

Aperocky 7y ago
Because they would be replaced by local Chinese companies. Are you saying that would have no effect on freedom for the users?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- untog 7y ago
  If Apple capitulates to every demand the Chinese government makes then perhaps there isn’t much of a difference.
  - millstone 7y ago
    Right. But of course the Chinese government has asked Apple for a backdoor, and (to our knowledge) Apple has not provided that. So long as that's true, an iPhone really is one of the most secure option for Chinese residents.
    - fooker 7y ago
      > (to our knowledge) This is really the key phrase here. What we know for sure is: Google and Facebook services do not work in China while Apple and Microsoft's do.
    - virgilp 7y ago
      Actually, to our knowledge, they provided exactly that.
    - _-___________-_ 7y ago
      Apple is open about the fact that their cloud services are operated by a Chinese company in China. No Chinese company has the option of refusing government demands for access to information. Therefore, at least the cloud services should be considered backdoored.
awat 7y ago
Agreed, not to hijack, but I fail to see the that $ORG not being at the table Vs. them constantly redefining morality for their actions to be at the table to be a less worse outcome.
- Aloha 7y ago
  I think the act of them being at the table is more likely to move the needle on the Chinese side.
derefr 7y ago
For one thing, pretty much every Android device made for the Chinese market has had its OS adulterated in some way, at OEM build time, at the behest of the Chinese government. Whereas, Chinese resellers can't really adulterate an iPhone's OS; there's just the one OS image (per model), signed and sealed by Apple, and if China wants to put a rootkit on it, they'd have to convince Apple to put it into that same base-image where any random security researcher (outside of China's reach to quash publication) might find it. (And yes, either way the phone's baseband will be adulterated by Chinese ISPs at the government's behest, but modern smartphones isolate themselves from their baseband pretty well, so this only matters if you're using your phone as a phone [calling/texting], instead of as a tablet with a data modem.)
- SiVal 7y ago
  No point in debating the details of which tech is more secure or what is encrypted or adulterated or whatever. Apple has made it clear that they will make sure the Chinese gov't gets what it wants. Even in a supposedly "autonomous" Hong Kong, China complains and Apple submits--flags, apps, speech, whatever. No need to even go to court, and certainly no point. So Apple has made it clear that if China wants something, the tech details won't matter. "Oh, I'm sorry, we don't have that information to give you." "Well, start keeping it from now on, but don't tell them, because telling them would offend us, and you don't want that...."
  - millstone 7y ago
    It's not "whatever." Apple has removed emoji and an app; they don't provide the government with backdoors or biometric data. There really is a line.
    - jakelazaroff 7y ago
      Why do you think there's a line? What is that based on?
    - corodra 7y ago
      https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/apple-iphone-ipad-government-data-privacy-transparency-report-2018-a8697761.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/ne... 2018: "The iPhone maker’s latest Transparency Report reveals it received 32,342 demands from governments around the world to access 163,823 devices, with 80 per cent of the requests granted." Come on, seriously? This is what they ADMIT to worldwide. Here's on China: https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/cn.html https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/cn.html Again, what they admit to. And that's only on the second half of 2018. With all their regular anti-consumer practices on hardware, you're really going to imagine they're champions of individual freedoms and privacy?

curt15 7y ago

>Permanent removal from China would probably be worse for freedom in China over 20 years How does Apple advance freedom in China?

Aloha 7y ago
I'm presuming a local company would be even more willing to bend than Apple is, and would do so more often.
millstone 7y ago
Spyware is routinely found preinstalled on Chinese branded phones, and Chinese border guards will install spyware on tourists' Android phones. iPhone users are much better protected from this stuff. 1: https://www.cyberscoop.com/android-malware-china-huawei-zte-kryptowire-blu-products/ https://www.cyberscoop.com/android-malware-china-huawei-zte-... 2: https://9to5mac.com/2019/07/03/spyware/ https://9to5mac.com/2019/07/03/spyware/
- CogitoCogito 7y ago
  Spyware is also found in iOS in China via iMessage so what’s your point?
  - sushicat 7y ago
    If we don’t talk about zero day vulnerability, which may be used by government to spy citizens, iMessage is end to end encrypted and secure. Chinese local chat app like WeChat, or customized Android from Xiaomi or Huawei, they have back doors, which allow Chinese gov access data directly. Spyware from unintentional vulnerability vs. intentional back doors are different.
    - _-___________-_ 7y ago
      If your phone is backed up to iCloud, and your phone (or iCloud account, it's not clear) has the region set to China, then your messages are most likely accessible by the Chinese government, because Apple's cloud services are operated by a Chinese company in China, and Chinese companies don't have the option of resisting information requests from the government.

bobthepanda 7y ago

How would permanent removal be worse? iMessage is not magically more free than other messaging apps available in China.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

rdlecler1 7y ago

Let’s call it what it is: bribery and corruption. It’s under the guise of market access, but it’s effectively still a payout by a government to do that you’re told. Apple wants to have it both ways, we are a moral authority in the US where we don’t have to worry about government interference but because we want access to the China market we’ll do whatever the government tells us to do. How much more dependent does China need to be before China can control other behavior it doesn’t like.

mortenjorck 7y ago

> Permanent removal from China would probably be worse for freedom in China over 20 years If there is one myth that the past couple of weeks have conclusively debunked, it is the idealistic conceit that the presence of western businesses in the Chinese market will inevitably liberalize China.

inlined 7y ago
I wonder if the backlash will form the opposite theory? Will people try to make the firewall bidirectional to prevent this type of global censorship?
kelnos 7y ago
Past couple of weeks? Developing China's economy and integrating it into world markets with the expectation that it would liberalize China has been a pipe dream for a good 30+ years now.

eddieplan9 7y ago

I honestly don't care when Apple complies with local law a la iCloud China. I think that is disappointing but completely reasonable, whether we agree with the law or not. However, Hong Kong is a special administration region, and has historically enjoyed high level of judicial independence. When Apple takes the clue from a Chinese government newspaper - not even a legal request - and do the CCP's bidding proactively, it crosses a line. This is not compliance. This is self-censor. You can argue that Hong Kong is part of China, and therefore Apple's operation in Hong Kong should comply with Chinese law. But what is next? China also claims sovereignty over Taiwan, will Apple self-censor Taiwanese App Store soon? Will Apple removes the Taiwanese flag from Taiwanese iOS users if China government demands so [1]? It's also sad to see Apple pushes back on US government requests because they can, and kowtows to the Chinese governments without their having to even sending a take-down request! If one day Apple fires some employee because the Chinese government thinks he/she "hurt Chinese people's feeling" in a personal tweet [2], I will not be surprised! [1] https://www.engadget.com/2019/10/09/apple-removes-taiwan-flag-emoji-from-ios-in-hong-kong/ https://www.engadget.com/2019/10/09/apple-removes-taiwan-fla... [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/nba/nba-statement-different-in-english-and-chinese/2019/10/07/81d9e55a-e8cc-11e9-a329-7378fbfa1b63_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/nba/nba-statement-diff...

sushicat 7y ago
Taiwan and Hong Kong are totally different cases. Taiwan is an independent country, no matter Chinese gov admits it or not. It has their own government, laws, military etc. Hong Kong is not, it’s only a special area belonging to China. When British handed it over to China years ago, China promised the situation will not change for 50 years. Although it’s a lie, it shows that China will have full control of HK eventually.

freeopinion 7y ago

> they're looking out for their own beet [sic] interest and the best interest of their customers I'm sure you think you just explained this, but it completely escaped me. How is yanking this app in the best interest of their customers? Let's break "their customers" into 3 groups: 1. Protestors in HK. It clearly isn't in their best interest . So not those customers, right? 2. Non-protestors in China (including HK). You're argument is that this way they can still enjoy Apple products? Even though those products can no longer be trusted not to betray them to any whim of a hostile government? 3. Customers outside China. The argument here seems to be that Apple makes lots of money in China and that an Apple that makes tons of money in China and outside of China is better for non-Chinese customers than an Apple that makes tons of money outside of China but not inside of China. This third group and justification is the most interesting to me. I stipulate that I have put words in your mouth. So let me take those words out of your mouth and just say this is the only way I can make sense of what you wrote. When I follow this train of thought the only way I can see it being true is if Apple's very existence is threatened if some other company were able to fill the void in China, then leverage that to gain so much market power outside of China that they could squash Apple. And even that alone doesn't make things worse for (former) Apple customers. The only way that would be worse is if this hypothetical competitor's products were actually worse than Apple's and only able to dominate the market because of the market power they enjoy due to Apple's absence in the Chinese market. That is such a stretch that I feel your argument should be dismissed. Can you fill in the holes of my understanding to help me see things your way? I think this is an extremely important discussion because it seems to be the mindset held by a lot of decision makers. Is the NBA worried that they will stop making many $millions if they don't expand into China? That is, not only will they not double or triple their profits; they will actually stop making money outside of China? Is Disney worried about this? Are Microsoft and Amazon? Is it a fight for survival? Or is it pure naked greed?

freeopinion 7y ago
Perhaps it could be argued that Apple is completely dependent on manufacturing facilities within China and losing that access would indeed be lethal. Some of Apple's biggest competitors outside China recognized that risk a long time ago and moved to minimize it. Why has Apple left themselves so vulnerable? Is it the only way they could produce inexpensively enough to stay competitive? Or is it, again, pure naked greed?

kerkeslager 7y ago

> Permanent removal from China would probably be worse for freedom in China over 20 years, Huh? > No company should be expected to back or foment a revolution somewhere, from my perspective they're looking out for their own beet interest and the best interest of their customers. Profit is not an adequate moral compass. I deeply disagree that by forming a corporation, individuals who would otherwise have ethical obligations are somehow no longer obligated to behave ethically. You're literally claiming that it's okay to enable the violation of human rights for profit.

Aloha 7y ago
Removal of an app is not enabling the violation of human rights. Now if Apple turned over the name and address of every person who had the app, that'd be the enabling of violating human rights.
- scarface74 7y ago
  Especially seeing the app doesn’t do anything that the website can’t do.
  - kerkeslager 7y ago
    Did you visit the website? It's hella slow. I imagine the app cached a lot of the map data locally and used a native renderer.
    - scarface74 7y ago
      Isn't that more of implementation detail? I've seen a few browser based game demos that work well on the iPhone and caching can also be done on mobile. While an app may be better for low end Android phones from an optimization standpoint, there are no "low end" iPhones that have been introduced since 2013 that wouldn't have a decent enough processor to handle a web based, optimized app. I don't believe that more people -- especially on HN -- are focusing less on the web as a means to get around the "wall garden" than focusing on sideloading.

scarface74 7y ago

No, but the US can make it hard for certain companies by imposing tariffs that hurt certain industries and “investigating” companies that get on the wrong side. Do you think a Democratic administration would target companies run by the “liberal elite” or that a Republican administration would go after churches that are supporting political candidates?