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I agree that Apple's stated rationale for removing the HKmap.live app is embarrassing and the removal is a capitulation to China's government. The reasons Chin

I agree that Apple's stated rationale for removing the HKmap.live app is embarrassing and the removal is a capitulation to China's government. The reasons China's government has decried the app are bogus, but those false reports and allegations do not originate with Apple. However, Apple appears to be accepting those reasons at face value and probably because Apple is kowtowing. Regarding whether iMessage is free from backdoors, Apple has given no reason for anyone to believe they are outright lying about the technical features of their software and hardware or their position regarding privacy. In other words, Apple appears to be caving into pressure from the Chinese government and Apple are openly admitting this surrender. However, Apple has not to date lied about what they are doing and we do not yet have a reason to doubt their representations about the security of their encryption.

capableweb 7y ago
> Regarding whether iMessage is free from backdoors, Apple has given no reason for anyone to believe they are outright lying about the technical features of their software and hardware or their position regarding privacy. Except if you live in China and have backups/storage on iCloud used by the various things you do with your iPhone.
cromwellian 7y ago
You can lie by omission. iMessage depends on IDS Directory Servers for two phones to exchange public keys. If China can spoof or run their own IDS Directory Server, they can potentially execute a man-in-the-middle attack.
evrydayhustling 7y ago
So you are saying that an organization that supports false accusations by others, but is not known to originate them, should be given the benefit of the doubt about assertions they originate. Here is another model: an organization that supports falsehoods to placate someone powerful in a small matter, like hosting an app, can be trusted to placate the powerful in a more important matter.
karmakaze 7y ago
OT: Appropriately TIL kowtow is a word that came from China early 19th century: from Chinese kētóu, from kē ‘knock’ + tóu ‘head’.
dilippkumar 7y ago
> However, Apple has not to date lied about what they are doing and we do not yet have a reason to doubt their representations about the security of their encryption. Today, they showed that they are willing to lie under sufficient influence. This sole data point is sufficient to tarnish what was assumed to be a perfect record. There is no such thing as 99.999% integrity. Apple either has 100% integrity or is inviting you to play russian roulette with it’s products and services. We might have already rolled the dice enough times - 1.4e9 active devices trusting apple about 10 times a day for 282 days this year = 3.948 trillion rolls of the dice. A 0.001% chance of betrayal by Apple is 39.4 million betrayals this year (approximately the population of Canada)
kerkeslager 7y ago
> However, Apple has not to date lied about what they are doing and we do not yet have a reason to doubt their representations about the security of their encryption. Did you read the original link, or the memo it linked to? "the app was being used maliciously to target individual officers for violence and to victimize individuals and property where no police are present." This was written by Tim Cook, speaking for Apple. That is Apple lying about what they are doing.
- dkonofalski 7y ago
  >That is Apple lying about what they are doing. That is a ludicrous interpretation of that statement, in my opinion. Apple is being told by the government of a nation they're operating under that the law has been broken and that those things happened. What is Apple supposed to do in this case? Tell China "we don't believe you" and then what? You think China is going to change its tune? Or do you think Apple can get away with saying "Ok, fine! We're not going to do business here!" with zero repercussions? This is not Apple lying. This is Apple making public what they were told by the Chinese government. Apple is not the bad guy here. China is.
  - computerex 7y ago
    Read this: https://daringfireball.net/linked/2019/10/10/cook-hkmap-live-email https://daringfireball.net/linked/2019/10/10/cook-hkmap-live... Once again, Apple is in complete control of their App Store. They are the ones who decided to remove the app because of financials. This is the price of doing business in China.

capableweb 7y ago

> Regarding whether iMessage is free from backdoors, Apple has given no reason for anyone to believe they are outright lying about the technical features of their software and hardware or their position regarding privacy. Except if you live in China and have backups/storage on iCloud used by the various things you do with your iPhone.

cromwellian 7y ago

You can lie by omission. iMessage depends on IDS Directory Servers for two phones to exchange public keys. If China can spoof or run their own IDS Directory Server, they can potentially execute a man-in-the-middle attack.

evrydayhustling 7y ago

So you are saying that an organization that supports false accusations by others, but is not known to originate them, should be given the benefit of the doubt about assertions they originate. Here is another model: an organization that supports falsehoods to placate someone powerful in a small matter, like hosting an app, can be trusted to placate the powerful in a more important matter.

karmakaze 7y ago

OT: Appropriately TIL kowtow is a word that came from China early 19th century: from Chinese kētóu, from kē ‘knock’ + tóu ‘head’.

dilippkumar 7y ago

> However, Apple has not to date lied about what they are doing and we do not yet have a reason to doubt their representations about the security of their encryption. Today, they showed that they are willing to lie under sufficient influence. This sole data point is sufficient to tarnish what was assumed to be a perfect record. There is no such thing as 99.999% integrity. Apple either has 100% integrity or is inviting you to play russian roulette with it’s products and services. We might have already rolled the dice enough times - 1.4e9 active devices trusting apple about 10 times a day for 282 days this year = 3.948 trillion rolls of the dice. A 0.001% chance of betrayal by Apple is 39.4 million betrayals this year (approximately the population of Canada)

kerkeslager 7y ago

> However, Apple has not to date lied about what they are doing and we do not yet have a reason to doubt their representations about the security of their encryption. Did you read the original link, or the memo it linked to? "the app was being used maliciously to target individual officers for violence and to victimize individuals and property where no police are present." This was written by Tim Cook, speaking for Apple. That is Apple lying about what they are doing.

dkonofalski 7y ago
>That is Apple lying about what they are doing. That is a ludicrous interpretation of that statement, in my opinion. Apple is being told by the government of a nation they're operating under that the law has been broken and that those things happened. What is Apple supposed to do in this case? Tell China "we don't believe you" and then what? You think China is going to change its tune? Or do you think Apple can get away with saying "Ok, fine! We're not going to do business here!" with zero repercussions? This is not Apple lying. This is Apple making public what they were told by the Chinese government. Apple is not the bad guy here. China is.
- computerex 7y ago
  Read this: https://daringfireball.net/linked/2019/10/10/cook-hkmap-live-email https://daringfireball.net/linked/2019/10/10/cook-hkmap-live... Once again, Apple is in complete control of their App Store. They are the ones who decided to remove the app because of financials. This is the price of doing business in China.