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Gruber is taking Ceglowski and HKmap.live's comments at face value, but they aren't disinterested actors. They both have (admirable) agendas in the pro-democrac
by Despegar 7y ago
Gruber is taking Ceglowski and HKmap.live's comments at face value, but they aren't disinterested actors. They both have (admirable) agendas in the pro-democracy protests. Of course they're going to characterize the app in the best light possible (it's so you can avoid the protests and avoid inadvertently running into cops).
Apple most likely did get legitimate examples of the app being used for that, and that was all the pretext they needed to remove it. The real issue is that the CCP is also likely holding a gun to their head both in the state newspaper but also privately. And obviously Apple isn't going to light themselves on fire which is what people really want to see them do.
Then there's the bad faith critics that are using this as an opportunity to say they're hypocrites because they are politically active on various issues (like the encryption fight with the FBI), as if it isn't because they're protected by the rule of law in Western nations and they aren't in China.
Ultimately everyone understands this. The real original sin is the fact that the West normalized relations with China in the first place [1]. Corporations like Apple aren't going to liberate China, and they can't even if they wanted to. The US and other countries could decide tomorrow to sanction China and Apple and every other business would be unable to do business with them. They could treat China like North Korea or Iran. That's a political question for governments, not corporations.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Communiqu%C3%A9s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Communiqu%C3%A9s
- dmix 7y agoWhy not ban Waze for their police reporting feature?
- toasterlovin 7y agoThe answer is probably: Stay Tuned.
- ummonk 7y agoIncidentally, I think that measures by Uber to identify riders who are cops and deny them rides should have gotten Uber the same treatment as any other organized crime syndicate.
- dmix 7y agoIncidentally to China’s authoritarianism you think companies should have their rights to who uses their services or not relinquished? What if a mall prevented undercover officers from using their property to investigate them, requesting they use public channels with it’s law or regulatory enforcement? I’ve read a few articles on it and since 2017 no charges have been laid. So clearly Uber didn’t break any laws by enforcing their terms of service. I’d much rather have this sort of thing be written clearly into law so whether or not they can force you to let them secretly use your service or not without identification can be constrained, limited in scope so it’s not a fishing expedition, and subsequently challenged in court.
- ryanlol 7y agoWhy?
- mercutio2 7y agoIs police reporting illegal in the countries in which Waze operates? I don’t buy that HKMap did anything illegal, but asking for equivalence with an app which is doing something vaguely similar in a jurisdiction where any of those things are perfectly legal seems to be missing the point.
- bduerst 7y agoIronically, Waze is owned by Google and not available in China because they did not capitulate to the Chinese government, so maybe that's a bad analogy.
- dmix 7y agoThe police and their unions have complained a lot in western countries about Waze. It’s a very controversial feature to them too. Which shows what type of government they’d build if we keep saying yes to them. This app is excluded to HK as well, it’s not like they have to appease China by proxy considering their app stores are already different.
- solidsnack9000 7y agoIt is really going too far to say that police would build some kind of non-free government, just because they complain about an app that helps people avoid getting caught for speeding.
- dmix 7y agoOf course, if that was the only example.
- scarface74 7y agoGoogle pulled out of China because their market share and profits were non existent.
- idlewords 7y agoHong Kong law is very similar to American law. Don't confuse Hong Kong with China. The parallel to Waze is a good one.
- Cenk 7y agoAs the academic Zeynep Tufekci (@zeynep) pointed out on Twitter, some of the things Tim Cook claims the app was used for aren’t even possible: > HK map app can't be used to "individually" target police because it doesn't have any granular reporting and as anyone in Hong Kong can attest, the police travel in large groups. Repeat: the app has no granular function. More like police here, tear gas there, road block here. (https://twitter.com/zeynep/status/1182384310873219077 https://twitter.com/zeynep/status/1182384310873219077) Also, if it does indeed violate a law, why can no-one tell us which law? Even the HK police deferred to Apple when asked about this.
- panic 7y ago> Apple most likely did get legitimate examples of the app being used for that, and that was all the pretext they needed to remove it. If they have examples, they should share them. It would have been easy for Tim to put the dates and locations of incidents in his email. There are plenty to go around on the protestor side: look up what happened at the Prince Edward MTR station on 8/31, for example.
- idlewords 7y agoPeople who disagree with my characterization of the app can still ask themselves why Tim Cook can't point to any Hong Kong law the app contravenes, even thought he claims it is illegal.
- dwaite 7y ago> even thought he claims it is illegal. citation?