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The issue with it is that Sun's writings are not used as guidance for war, it's used as guidance for X. There X is random action you're engaged in. If it was us

The issue with it is that Sun's writings are not used as guidance for war, it's used as guidance for X. There X is random action you're engaged in. If it was used as guidance for war, it would be popular in military circles, whereas I see it popular in entrepreneurial circles.

whalesalad 7y ago
It’s helpful advice for any time you‘re leading one group of people against another. That’s why it’s popular in entrepreneurial circles.
dragonwriter 7y ago
> The issue with it is that Sun's writings are not used as guidance for war Yes, they are. > it's used as guidance for X. To the extent that's a problem (and for some values of X it is), it is not a problem with the writing, but with the use. > If it was used as guidance for war, it would be popular in military circles It (and newer works grounded in part in it and/or intermediary sources derived in part from it) is.
chrisseaton 7y ago
> Sun's writings are not used as guidance for war You're ignorant - they are used as guidance for war. For just one example - British Army Doctrine Land Operations, the current core document for how the British think about fighting war on land, quotes Tzu: > The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/605298/Army_Field_Manual__AFM__A5_Master_ADP_Interactive_Gov_Web.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago
  > The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. This illustrates my pointer perfectly. This quote is just a fancy way of saying "It's great if you can get what you want without fighting." While true, pretty much every leader since the dawn of time has known that. Darius I, sent a mission to Sparta demanding earth and water for this very reason. The advice is nicely stated, but it isn't all that practically helpful.
  - chrisseaton 7y ago
    > This illustrates my pointer perfectly. Well your point was that it wasn't used as guidance for war until we showed that it was... > While true, pretty much every leader since the dawn of time has known that. No I don't think they have. I think it has been constantly forgotten and rediscovered. Today when we talk about how to fight we might say this in terms of 'shatter the enemy's cohesion and will to fight' rather than fighting them directly. Get inside their OODA loop, match strength with weakness, in other words. It turns out people don't naturally do this! It has to be taught! They forgot this, for example, during WW1 when they fought attrition warfare. They focused on meeting the enemy and having a fight, toe-to-toe, force against force. There's something about human nature that seems to always lead people toward this approach by default, and we have to constantly remind ourselves of advice, using for example Tzu, to avoid it and instead of looking to fight the enemy, to break the enemy's cohesion.
  - crpatino 7y ago
    No wonder you cannot apreciate Sun Tzu's work if you fail to grasp the difference between >>subduing your enemy without fighting<< and >>getting what you want without fighting.<< It's not even subtle. One requires, but is not limited, to activelly foreclose the enemy's opportunities to deploy their assets against you; the other simply consists of siting on your hands and waiting for the good life to happen to you.
omginternets 7y ago
>it would be popular in military circles It is popular in military circles ...

whalesalad 7y ago

It’s helpful advice for any time you‘re leading one group of people against another. That’s why it’s popular in entrepreneurial circles.

dragonwriter 7y ago

> The issue with it is that Sun's writings are not used as guidance for war Yes, they are. > it's used as guidance for X. To the extent that's a problem (and for some values of X it is), it is not a problem with the writing, but with the use. > If it was used as guidance for war, it would be popular in military circles It (and newer works grounded in part in it and/or intermediary sources derived in part from it) is.

chrisseaton 7y ago

> Sun's writings are not used as guidance for war You're ignorant - they are used as guidance for war. For just one example - British Army Doctrine Land Operations, the current core document for how the British think about fighting war on land, quotes Tzu: > The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/605298/Army_Field_Manual__AFM__A5_Master_ADP_Interactive_Gov_Web.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...

RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago
> The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. This illustrates my pointer perfectly. This quote is just a fancy way of saying "It's great if you can get what you want without fighting." While true, pretty much every leader since the dawn of time has known that. Darius I, sent a mission to Sparta demanding earth and water for this very reason. The advice is nicely stated, but it isn't all that practically helpful.
- chrisseaton 7y ago
  > This illustrates my pointer perfectly. Well your point was that it wasn't used as guidance for war until we showed that it was... > While true, pretty much every leader since the dawn of time has known that. No I don't think they have. I think it has been constantly forgotten and rediscovered. Today when we talk about how to fight we might say this in terms of 'shatter the enemy's cohesion and will to fight' rather than fighting them directly. Get inside their OODA loop, match strength with weakness, in other words. It turns out people don't naturally do this! It has to be taught! They forgot this, for example, during WW1 when they fought attrition warfare. They focused on meeting the enemy and having a fight, toe-to-toe, force against force. There's something about human nature that seems to always lead people toward this approach by default, and we have to constantly remind ourselves of advice, using for example Tzu, to avoid it and instead of looking to fight the enemy, to break the enemy's cohesion.
- crpatino 7y ago
  No wonder you cannot apreciate Sun Tzu's work if you fail to grasp the difference between >>subduing your enemy without fighting<< and >>getting what you want without fighting.<< It's not even subtle. One requires, but is not limited, to activelly foreclose the enemy's opportunities to deploy their assets against you; the other simply consists of siting on your hands and waiting for the good life to happen to you.

omginternets 7y ago

>it would be popular in military circles It is popular in military circles ...