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> “but we expect that as the adoption of USB Type-C products and USB Power Delivery continues to increase the market will guide [manufacturers] toward a common

> “but we expect that as the adoption of USB Type-C products and USB Power Delivery continues to increase the market will guide [manufacturers] toward a common implementation.” I'd really like this, but I don't know if it'll ever happen. The situation, as it stands now, is a mess: The Raspberry Pi finally got USB-C, but they botched the implementation. As did the Nintendo switch. Even with phones and audio, there's like two different kinds of dongles and you never know which will work? https://youtu.be/Ly-bSBHOSIo https://youtu.be/Ly-bSBHOSIo Not to mention that there's a ridiculous number of standards that a USB-C device can support, but you have no way of knowing what by looking at it physically. Power delivery? Not on most non-high-end Windows laptops. Data? On most, except the Raspberry Pi? QuickCharge? Sometimes. Video? Only with some phones and laptops. Not most non-high-end devices. You always have to look it up, it's a huge mess.

mmastrac 7y ago
USB-A had the same growing pains. I recall buying a USB hub around 2000ish that used to crash randomly. It wasn't until the mid 2000s til you could get hubs that were reliable. There was also a myriad of charging options around the launch of the iPad. It was a hit or miss gamble with chargers, cables and devices. Maybe you'll get 1A? Maybe not? USB-C is a complex standard, but the chipsets and processes are improving and this pain will be a distant memory - just like all those USB-A pains we had.
- rhombocombus 7y ago
  I remember, it was such that I despised USB for many years, but then it reached a level of ubiquity and maturity that made it really great. Like you, I think that in a few years this will all be like USB-a in the late '90s/early 2000s.
  - SmellyGeekBoy 7y ago
    Probably just in time for USB4 / USB-D to come and mess it all up again ;)
    - nkrisc 7y ago
      The plug will be shaped like an X so you have four possible orientations for plugging it in, unlike the two that type-C has. What an upgrade!
      - pkolaczk 7y ago
        And the final upgrade will be a round plug allowing infinite number of orientations for plugging it in. What an upgrade! I can't wait to get a charger with such a plug... oh... wait... it happened before: https://www.indiamart.com/proddetail/nokia-ac-5-mobile-device-chargers-18995373612.html https://www.indiamart.com/proddetail/nokia-ac-5-mobile-devic...
- jjoonathan 7y ago
  Counterexample: Bluetooth has been around for a good while and outside of well-tested vertically integrated setups it's still a hot mess.
  - zifutreiua 7y ago
    I would argue that Bluetooth always was and always will be a shitty technology. It's not growing pains, it's just bad. Nothing can fix that, just throwing it away and starting over.
    - mprev 7y ago
      Which part of Bluetooth do you dislike? These days it’s more like a family of standards.
      - SmellyGeekBoy 7y ago
        This is the problem. Just because two devices both feature the Bluetooth logo doesn't actually mean they'll play nicely together.
      - jwr 7y ago
        I believe the commenter has no idea and is just repeating a common phrase. To take an example, BLE is really quite good, and works reliably.
      - bluedino 7y ago
        It's slow. Transfering videos from my iPhone to my MacBook happens very fast, sending a video from a friends Android phone to my Thinkpad takes forever.
        tialaramex 7y ago
        Over Bluetooth? Yeah, that would be slow. The Apple devices are almost certainly spinning up a WiFi connection to actually move the data. I imagine that both the Android phone and the ThinkPad can be taught how to do that, but it doesn't surprise me that it didn't just work out of the box.
- JonathonW 7y ago
  A lot of the implementation bugs will get worked out eventually, but I don't really see how the more fundamental usability issues around port capabilities (Video? Thunderbolt? USB-PD? Quick Charge? Data rates?) or cable capabilities (USB2/USB3 speeds, current/voltage limits, TB support) get worked out over time-- all that seems to come with the territory when you try to build the "one connector to rule them all" (so to speak).
  - jdnenej 7y ago
    It would be fine if there was clear branding. For some reason manufacturerers refuse to list all of the modes supported even in the spec sheet. It's just "usb-c" sometimes it isn't even usb3. At most they will say if it supports thunderbolt or not.
- laumars 7y ago
  I honestly don't think that's acceptable. It shouldn't take 5 years of consumer pain to get a technology right when we already have 2 decades of prior engineering experience to help us get this right on day one of release.
arcticbull 7y ago
It's kind of impressive how much manufacturers mess up implementations of PD when there's single-chip PD and Type-C controllers that manage the whole show for you [1] like the TPS65986. [1] https://www.digikey.com/en/product-highlight/t/texas-instruments/tps65986-usb-type-c-and-pd-controller?utm_adgroup=xGeneral&slid=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI49W54NSS5QIVlMJkCh3Iqw43EAAYASAAEgIAqfD_BwE https://www.digikey.com/en/product-highlight/t/texas-instrum...
- jjoonathan 7y ago
  I remember hearing complaints from hardware engineers about the non-existence of such a chip in the not too distant past, so the answer might be that it simply wasn't available in time for the design cycle of the products currently on the market.
- Nullabillity 7y ago
  That chip is pretty expensive. At $6.46/ea (in production quantities) it's a lot more than most cheap microcontrollers. For the hobby (/etsy/small-run-on-ebay) market there's also the fact that the average hobbyist doesn't have access to soldering equipment that is good at BGA parts.
- oxplot 7y ago
  I've used STUSB4500 [1] in my latest project. Super simple and low external component count. Cheap too. [1]: https://au.mouser.com/ProductDetail/STMicroelectronics/STUSB4500QTR https://au.mouser.com/ProductDetail/STMicroelectronics/STUSB...
  - arcticbull 7y ago
    That's awesome, thanks! I'll probably revise my ongoing USB-C nixie tube clock design project to include one :)
windexh8er 7y ago
It's a mess because the RPi4 engineers didn't follow the USB-C spec exactly as Benson Leung has been saying for years [0]. They made it harder than it was and messed it up in the process of rolling their own. https://medium.com/@leung.benson/how-to-design-a-proper-usb-c-power-sink-hint-not-the-way-raspberry-pi-4-did-it-f470d7a5910 https://medium.com/@leung.benson/how-to-design-a-proper-usb-...

mmastrac 7y ago

USB-A had the same growing pains. I recall buying a USB hub around 2000ish that used to crash randomly. It wasn't until the mid 2000s til you could get hubs that were reliable. There was also a myriad of charging options around the launch of the iPad. It was a hit or miss gamble with chargers, cables and devices. Maybe you'll get 1A? Maybe not? USB-C is a complex standard, but the chipsets and processes are improving and this pain will be a distant memory - just like all those USB-A pains we had.

rhombocombus 7y ago
I remember, it was such that I despised USB for many years, but then it reached a level of ubiquity and maturity that made it really great. Like you, I think that in a few years this will all be like USB-a in the late '90s/early 2000s.
- SmellyGeekBoy 7y ago
  Probably just in time for USB4 / USB-D to come and mess it all up again ;)
  - nkrisc 7y ago
    The plug will be shaped like an X so you have four possible orientations for plugging it in, unlike the two that type-C has. What an upgrade!
    - pkolaczk 7y ago
      And the final upgrade will be a round plug allowing infinite number of orientations for plugging it in. What an upgrade! I can't wait to get a charger with such a plug... oh... wait... it happened before: https://www.indiamart.com/proddetail/nokia-ac-5-mobile-device-chargers-18995373612.html https://www.indiamart.com/proddetail/nokia-ac-5-mobile-devic...
jjoonathan 7y ago
Counterexample: Bluetooth has been around for a good while and outside of well-tested vertically integrated setups it's still a hot mess.
- zifutreiua 7y ago
  I would argue that Bluetooth always was and always will be a shitty technology. It's not growing pains, it's just bad. Nothing can fix that, just throwing it away and starting over.
  - mprev 7y ago
    Which part of Bluetooth do you dislike? These days it’s more like a family of standards.
    - SmellyGeekBoy 7y ago
      This is the problem. Just because two devices both feature the Bluetooth logo doesn't actually mean they'll play nicely together.
    - jwr 7y ago
      I believe the commenter has no idea and is just repeating a common phrase. To take an example, BLE is really quite good, and works reliably.
    - bluedino 7y ago
      It's slow. Transfering videos from my iPhone to my MacBook happens very fast, sending a video from a friends Android phone to my Thinkpad takes forever.
      - tialaramex 7y ago
        Over Bluetooth? Yeah, that would be slow. The Apple devices are almost certainly spinning up a WiFi connection to actually move the data. I imagine that both the Android phone and the ThinkPad can be taught how to do that, but it doesn't surprise me that it didn't just work out of the box.
JonathonW 7y ago
A lot of the implementation bugs will get worked out eventually, but I don't really see how the more fundamental usability issues around port capabilities (Video? Thunderbolt? USB-PD? Quick Charge? Data rates?) or cable capabilities (USB2/USB3 speeds, current/voltage limits, TB support) get worked out over time-- all that seems to come with the territory when you try to build the "one connector to rule them all" (so to speak).
- jdnenej 7y ago
  It would be fine if there was clear branding. For some reason manufacturerers refuse to list all of the modes supported even in the spec sheet. It's just "usb-c" sometimes it isn't even usb3. At most they will say if it supports thunderbolt or not.
laumars 7y ago
I honestly don't think that's acceptable. It shouldn't take 5 years of consumer pain to get a technology right when we already have 2 decades of prior engineering experience to help us get this right on day one of release.

arcticbull 7y ago

It's kind of impressive how much manufacturers mess up implementations of PD when there's single-chip PD and Type-C controllers that manage the whole show for you [1] like the TPS65986. [1] https://www.digikey.com/en/product-highlight/t/texas-instruments/tps65986-usb-type-c-and-pd-controller?utm_adgroup=xGeneral&slid=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI49W54NSS5QIVlMJkCh3Iqw43EAAYASAAEgIAqfD_BwE https://www.digikey.com/en/product-highlight/t/texas-instrum...

jjoonathan 7y ago
I remember hearing complaints from hardware engineers about the non-existence of such a chip in the not too distant past, so the answer might be that it simply wasn't available in time for the design cycle of the products currently on the market.
Nullabillity 7y ago
That chip is pretty expensive. At $6.46/ea (in production quantities) it's a lot more than most cheap microcontrollers. For the hobby (/etsy/small-run-on-ebay) market there's also the fact that the average hobbyist doesn't have access to soldering equipment that is good at BGA parts.
oxplot 7y ago
I've used STUSB4500 [1] in my latest project. Super simple and low external component count. Cheap too. [1]: https://au.mouser.com/ProductDetail/STMicroelectronics/STUSB4500QTR https://au.mouser.com/ProductDetail/STMicroelectronics/STUSB...
- arcticbull 7y ago
  That's awesome, thanks! I'll probably revise my ongoing USB-C nixie tube clock design project to include one :)

windexh8er 7y ago

It's a mess because the RPi4 engineers didn't follow the USB-C spec exactly as Benson Leung has been saying for years [0]. They made it harder than it was and messed it up in the process of rolling their own. https://medium.com/@leung.benson/how-to-design-a-proper-usb-c-power-sink-hint-not-the-way-raspberry-pi-4-did-it-f470d7a5910 https://medium.com/@leung.benson/how-to-design-a-proper-usb-...