12 ms·

>If they’re going to be dicks about keeping it proprietary then maybe it’s time for someone to come up with an open alternative. There's https://en.wikipedia.o

by lol768 7y ago

>If they’re going to be dicks about keeping it proprietary then maybe it’s time for someone to come up with an open alternative. There's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Location_Code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Location_Code from Google (AKA Plus Codes). They have a useful wiki article which compares existing systems: https://github.com/google/open-location-code/wiki/Evaluation-of-Location-Encoding-Systems https://github.com/google/open-location-code/wiki/Evaluation...

slavik81 7y ago
Notably missing from the evaluation is MGRS, the coordinate system used by NATO for more or less the same purpose. I like it because if you have the coordinates of a landmark, you can easily estimate the coordinates of other nearby locations entirely in your head, and the system encodes precision so you can indicate uncertainty. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Grid_Reference_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Grid_Reference_System
- ssambros 7y ago
  With it's pros being the ability to know how close the points are just having the 2 coordinates and arbitrary precision. Who knows how far away epic.region.music and epic.global.music are from just the names? While 18SUJ2163104440 and 12SVC0452723150 are 6 grid zones apart east to west.
  - 9nGQluzmnq3M 7y ago
    That's a handy property for the 3 people on Earth who have the algorithm behind it memorized, but the rest of the world would prefer to be able to easily read, write and share the codes.
    - labster 7y ago
      Most people can tell proximity in lat/lon coordinates based on the algorithm they learned in first grade: the number line. Perhaps they could use a similarly ubiquitous system, like the alphabet. There’s even a song to help you memorize it!
    - AWildC182 7y ago
      The algorithm is absolutely trivial -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Grid_Reference_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Grid_Reference_System It's actually quite pleasant to use and allows you to just truncate to the level of precision you want. S/He just posted the 1m resolution string when 18-SU-J-216-044 would get you to 100m. All this said, I think the real issue is that we refuse to PICK a standard and so every device with a GPS and ever map has one or two of -MGRS -UTM (almost identical to MGRS) -LL DD MM' SS.ss" -LL DD.dddd... -LL DD MM.mmmm...' etc. If you make a device that can output or accept a location string, make sure it can handle all LL cases and UTM/MGRS.
      - dmix 7y ago
        I think we have different definitions of trivial. Or you put a lot of trust in the average persons intelligence or more importantly laziness.
- PLenz 7y ago
  Mgrs is also a perfect m-ary tree, it really has so many useful properties for doing spatial machine learning.
- slavik81 7y ago
  To expand a bit, I wish it was included in the comparison not only because it has some big advantages, but also because it has some drawbacks worth examining. The top-level zones are its weakness. The further apart two coordinates are from each other, the more difficult it is to reason about their relationship. MGRS works fantastic for reasoning about coordinates on the same grid square, but gets harder as you move up to comparing between grid squares and harder still as you compare between zones. A grid square is 100km x 100km, so it's pretty big, and coordinates in the square are easy to manipulate. If you know your office is at 4QFJ 21631 04440 and the Starbucks is about 500 meters down the road to the north, then you know Starbucks' coordinates are roughly 4QFJ 21631 04940. To indicate your uncertainty, you'd say 4QFJ 216 049, or possibly just 216 049 if the grid square was already known from context. The system is typically extended to allow that reasoning to work even at the edges of a grid square, by allowing eastings and northings that extend past the grid square edge. This means there's more than one possible way to describe a location, though only one canonical way. Unless you're already familiar with the area, you may need a map to compare coordinates on different squares. Some of the grid zones are also a little oddly shaped. It's mostly not a big deal because they're huge, and it really only affects which coordinate representation is the canonical one at the boundaries, but it would be nice if the top-level 6° by 8° grid zones were more regular.
ourlordcaffeine 7y ago
I mean there are also normal co-ordinates, and also the grid reference system in the UK. What3words will be a nightmare over a weak voice radio signal, if amateur radio experiences are anything to go by
- bfieidhbrjr 7y ago
  It’s literally designed to be used over voice, that’s the entire point.
  - ourlordcaffeine 7y ago
    Over a weak radio signal, it will be a nightmare. Sticking to numerics will be far easier.
    - snodnipper 7y ago
      I have encountered many positive statements about What3Words for emergency response. Just one news article: https://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/17935101.what3words-app-used-south-western-ambulance-find-patients/ https://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/17935101.what3words-app-us... Can you comment more about "weak radio signal"? Perhaps one can deduce the a number by hearing a small sample of a sound...whereas W3W has a wider vocabulary? My guess is that if necessary, one could repeat each word several times (e.g. over a period of 10 seconds).
      - ryanlol 7y ago
        There exists vast experience in aviation to learn from. When you’re having radio readability issues you really want a small and clear vocabulary.
        snodnipper 7y ago
        Thanks - I can see that. I am guessing that the smaller vocabulary is particularly useful in analogue systems. Perhaps W3W is viewed positively for (digital) cellular connections but might be inappropriate for other radio technology.
thelittlenag 7y ago
(disclosure: i work for qalocate.com) I think that OLC and W3W have many flaws. If you want to read a critique OLC I suggest you read this: https://www.qalocate.com/whats-wrong-with-open-location-code/ https://www.qalocate.com/whats-wrong-with-open-location-code... At QA Locate we've been working on a similar solution that we call GeohashPhrase. Rather than encoding a location as 3 random words, or the alphanumeric code of OLC, we instead just encode a geohash as a sentence. Encoding/decoding is relatively trivial, and can be done offline, but I've yet to write up docs I'm comfortable with other people reading. There are some light docs you can reference here: https://www.qalocate.com/resources/ https://www.qalocate.com/resources/ We have a video on the tech here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlscJ8MOPjM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlscJ8MOPjM I'm working on some better preliminary docs, but working code takes priority ;-) Btw, the GeohashPhrase will be open source and free to use.
- StavrosK 7y ago
  Damn, I was all riled up to read a good critique of OLC but this fell way short of the mark, in my opinion. Things like: > Implicit, however, is that the only way to resolve that shortened code is to make a call to the Google Maps API. Why? If OSM supports plus codes, that'll work equally well, no? > By allowing reference locations in plus codes these codes are tied to specific political entities Okay, but, as I understand it, you just need to point to something in the general vicinity, close enough that it can disambiguate Athens, Greece from Washington DC. Unless the city moves half a country away, the code will still work. > If so, what I really need to know is the correct parking, or rideshare drop off, and the closest entrance, not directions to center court, which is apparently where “Q5RQ+6V Dallas, Texas” actually is! Are you really complaining that the coordinate you set wasn't the coordinate you wanted to set? Or that Google Maps (not OLC) isn't smart enough to route you to a stadium properly? The rest of the article is similarly seemingly looking to pick a fight with tenuous assertions, I'm afraid.
- lioeters 7y ago
  I've liked the idea of Open Location Code for some time, so when I read the following, I thought "Surely that's not right?" > Implicit, however, is that the only way to resolve that shortened code is to make a call to the Google Maps API. I'd always thought OLC could encode/decode coordinates with a simple algorithm, with more or less precision based on the length of the code. Referring to their documentation, I found this [0]: > Supporting local codes.. If you have no map and cannot determine the device location, a local code is not sufficient and you should display a message back to the user asking them to provide a town or city name or the full global code. > ..extract the local code and send the remaining text to your geocoding service (Nominatim, Google, etc). What! I didn't know this about shortened codes - that need for an external service to decode plus codes diminishes my enthusiasm for the standard considerably. Thank you for the write up, will be keeping my ears open for GeohashPhrase. --- [0] https://github.com/google/open-location-code/wiki/Supporting-plus-codes-in-your-app https://github.com/google/open-location-code/wiki/Supporting...

by lol768 7y ago

slavik81 7y ago

Notably missing from the evaluation is MGRS, the coordinate system used by NATO for more or less the same purpose. I like it because if you have the coordinates of a landmark, you can easily estimate the coordinates of other nearby locations entirely in your head, and the system encodes precision so you can indicate uncertainty. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Grid_Reference_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Grid_Reference_System

ssambros 7y ago
With it's pros being the ability to know how close the points are just having the 2 coordinates and arbitrary precision. Who knows how far away epic.region.music and epic.global.music are from just the names? While 18SUJ2163104440 and 12SVC0452723150 are 6 grid zones apart east to west.
- 9nGQluzmnq3M 7y ago
  That's a handy property for the 3 people on Earth who have the algorithm behind it memorized, but the rest of the world would prefer to be able to easily read, write and share the codes.
  - labster 7y ago
    Most people can tell proximity in lat/lon coordinates based on the algorithm they learned in first grade: the number line. Perhaps they could use a similarly ubiquitous system, like the alphabet. There’s even a song to help you memorize it!
  - AWildC182 7y ago
    The algorithm is absolutely trivial -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Grid_Reference_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Grid_Reference_System It's actually quite pleasant to use and allows you to just truncate to the level of precision you want. S/He just posted the 1m resolution string when 18-SU-J-216-044 would get you to 100m. All this said, I think the real issue is that we refuse to PICK a standard and so every device with a GPS and ever map has one or two of -MGRS -UTM (almost identical to MGRS) -LL DD MM' SS.ss" -LL DD.dddd... -LL DD MM.mmmm...' etc. If you make a device that can output or accept a location string, make sure it can handle all LL cases and UTM/MGRS.
    - dmix 7y ago
      I think we have different definitions of trivial. Or you put a lot of trust in the average persons intelligence or more importantly laziness.
PLenz 7y ago
Mgrs is also a perfect m-ary tree, it really has so many useful properties for doing spatial machine learning.
slavik81 7y ago
To expand a bit, I wish it was included in the comparison not only because it has some big advantages, but also because it has some drawbacks worth examining. The top-level zones are its weakness. The further apart two coordinates are from each other, the more difficult it is to reason about their relationship. MGRS works fantastic for reasoning about coordinates on the same grid square, but gets harder as you move up to comparing between grid squares and harder still as you compare between zones. A grid square is 100km x 100km, so it's pretty big, and coordinates in the square are easy to manipulate. If you know your office is at 4QFJ 21631 04440 and the Starbucks is about 500 meters down the road to the north, then you know Starbucks' coordinates are roughly 4QFJ 21631 04940. To indicate your uncertainty, you'd say 4QFJ 216 049, or possibly just 216 049 if the grid square was already known from context. The system is typically extended to allow that reasoning to work even at the edges of a grid square, by allowing eastings and northings that extend past the grid square edge. This means there's more than one possible way to describe a location, though only one canonical way. Unless you're already familiar with the area, you may need a map to compare coordinates on different squares. Some of the grid zones are also a little oddly shaped. It's mostly not a big deal because they're huge, and it really only affects which coordinate representation is the canonical one at the boundaries, but it would be nice if the top-level 6° by 8° grid zones were more regular.

ourlordcaffeine 7y ago

I mean there are also normal co-ordinates, and also the grid reference system in the UK. What3words will be a nightmare over a weak voice radio signal, if amateur radio experiences are anything to go by

bfieidhbrjr 7y ago
It’s literally designed to be used over voice, that’s the entire point.
- ourlordcaffeine 7y ago
  Over a weak radio signal, it will be a nightmare. Sticking to numerics will be far easier.
  - snodnipper 7y ago
    I have encountered many positive statements about What3Words for emergency response. Just one news article: https://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/17935101.what3words-app-used-south-western-ambulance-find-patients/ https://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/17935101.what3words-app-us... Can you comment more about "weak radio signal"? Perhaps one can deduce the a number by hearing a small sample of a sound...whereas W3W has a wider vocabulary? My guess is that if necessary, one could repeat each word several times (e.g. over a period of 10 seconds).
    - ryanlol 7y ago
      There exists vast experience in aviation to learn from. When you’re having radio readability issues you really want a small and clear vocabulary.
      - snodnipper 7y ago
        Thanks - I can see that. I am guessing that the smaller vocabulary is particularly useful in analogue systems. Perhaps W3W is viewed positively for (digital) cellular connections but might be inappropriate for other radio technology.

thelittlenag 7y ago

(disclosure: i work for qalocate.com) I think that OLC and W3W have many flaws. If you want to read a critique OLC I suggest you read this: https://www.qalocate.com/whats-wrong-with-open-location-code/ https://www.qalocate.com/whats-wrong-with-open-location-code... At QA Locate we've been working on a similar solution that we call GeohashPhrase. Rather than encoding a location as 3 random words, or the alphanumeric code of OLC, we instead just encode a geohash as a sentence. Encoding/decoding is relatively trivial, and can be done offline, but I've yet to write up docs I'm comfortable with other people reading. There are some light docs you can reference here: https://www.qalocate.com/resources/ https://www.qalocate.com/resources/ We have a video on the tech here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlscJ8MOPjM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlscJ8MOPjM I'm working on some better preliminary docs, but working code takes priority ;-) Btw, the GeohashPhrase will be open source and free to use.

StavrosK 7y ago
Damn, I was all riled up to read a good critique of OLC but this fell way short of the mark, in my opinion. Things like: > Implicit, however, is that the only way to resolve that shortened code is to make a call to the Google Maps API. Why? If OSM supports plus codes, that'll work equally well, no? > By allowing reference locations in plus codes these codes are tied to specific political entities Okay, but, as I understand it, you just need to point to something in the general vicinity, close enough that it can disambiguate Athens, Greece from Washington DC. Unless the city moves half a country away, the code will still work. > If so, what I really need to know is the correct parking, or rideshare drop off, and the closest entrance, not directions to center court, which is apparently where “Q5RQ+6V Dallas, Texas” actually is! Are you really complaining that the coordinate you set wasn't the coordinate you wanted to set? Or that Google Maps (not OLC) isn't smart enough to route you to a stadium properly? The rest of the article is similarly seemingly looking to pick a fight with tenuous assertions, I'm afraid.
lioeters 7y ago
I've liked the idea of Open Location Code for some time, so when I read the following, I thought "Surely that's not right?" > Implicit, however, is that the only way to resolve that shortened code is to make a call to the Google Maps API. I'd always thought OLC could encode/decode coordinates with a simple algorithm, with more or less precision based on the length of the code. Referring to their documentation, I found this [0]: > Supporting local codes.. If you have no map and cannot determine the device location, a local code is not sufficient and you should display a message back to the user asking them to provide a town or city name or the full global code. > ..extract the local code and send the remaining text to your geocoding service (Nominatim, Google, etc). What! I didn't know this about shortened codes - that need for an external service to decode plus codes diminishes my enthusiasm for the standard considerably. Thank you for the write up, will be keeping my ears open for GeohashPhrase. --- [0] https://github.com/google/open-location-code/wiki/Supporting-plus-codes-in-your-app https://github.com/google/open-location-code/wiki/Supporting...