4 ms·

This argument reminds me of the gun control argument. People in favour of "more guns" are fully aware that more guns means a more dangerous society. But they c

This argument reminds me of the gun control argument. People in favour of "more guns" are fully aware that more guns means a more dangerous society. But they consider the freedom to choose whether to own guns more important than living in a statistically safer society. Whereas, people in favour of "gun control" consider the safety of society overall to be much more important than the freedom to own devices designed to kill people. To me, that's what Android vs iPhone represents with respect to freedom. Android gives you more freedom to choose different devices, but at the cost of most devices not getting security and OS updates. Likewise, Android gives you the freedom to side-load all kinds of things onto your devices, and of course the Android ecosystem is chock-full of malware. The proponent of freedom says, "Yes, I understand that this is a much more dangerous ecosystem, but I value the freedom to defend myself." The proponent of safety says, "There are some dangers that are best met by a centralized, platform defence, not by individuals." Philosophically, I understand both arguments, even if I am very clearly in one of the two camps with no interest whatsoever in switching to the other.

shadowgovt 7y ago
Apart from the fact that an Android that has side-loaded malware probably(1) won't shoot five innocent bystanders, I think this is a good analogy. (1) Probably. It's an open source OS, so no telling categorically what hardware it's driving ;)
- judge2020 7y ago
  Wait for a kickstarter for a phone-gun hybrid with a "shoot" button available to the phone.
aianus 7y ago
This also mirrors Chinese vs. American values perfectly. The Chinese believe in the Apple model of safety, greater good, social harmony, and the ends justifying the means over individual liberties. The concentration camps, great firewall, IP theft, everything we see as dysfunctional about China stems from this belief system. Americans don't believe in the "greater good" or "the ends justify the means" and it results in uniquely American dysfunctions like mass shootings and homeless people shitting in the street in SF. Still, like you, I have no interest in switching to the other camp. It is a basic value system ingrained in me.
- moogleii 7y ago
  This is a terrible generalization and greatly conflates the people and the government of China, which has been ignoring philosophers and politicians extolling such values for decades.
- chapium 7y ago
  I'd hope that a society can believe in a collective good without resorting to concentration camps.
- CharlesColeman 7y ago
  > This also mirrors Chinese vs. American values perfectly. > The Chinese believe in the Apple model of safety, greater good, social harmony, and the ends justifying the means over individual liberties. The concentration camps, great firewall, IP theft, everything we see as dysfunctional about China stems from this belief system. By "Chinese" do you mean the Chinese people, Chinese culture, of the Communist Party of China?
- magduf 7y ago
  As the other responder says, this is a terrible generalization. Japan also has a society where the greater good and social harmony are highly valued, and they don't have things like concentration camps, a great firewall, IP theft, etc. However, in the US, we do have concentration camps. We call them "migrant detention centers", and people are forced to drink water from the toilet there, and small children are forcibly separate from their mothers. It seems to me that the US is more similar to China than you think.
amatecha 7y ago
It has nothing to do with gun control. An analogy isn't necessary to understand that one platform regularly has software that was vetted and released on its _official software distribution platform_ that contains malware/spyware and trojans. Here's one from last year[0]. I don't expect my smartphone to be "open" and fulfilling my principles of "freedom". I do expect that from my _computer_, but I don't carry my computer in my pocket and across borders and put it in other peoples' hands to show them photos (for example). I also don't connect my computer to unknown wireless networks, whereas my smartphone has bluetooth enabled[1] and is basically constantly connected to unfamiliar wireless networks (work/hotel/cafe/library/neighbour/etc.), any of which may include malicious actors who are scanning for vulnerable devices. A pretty solid use case for which I'll choose the device that is far less likely to be owned. [0] https://www.symantec.com/blogs/expert-perspectives/ongoing-android-malware-campaign-targets-palestinians-part-1 https://www.symantec.com/blogs/expert-perspectives/ongoing-a... [1] https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/12/new-bluetooth-vulnerability-can-hack-a-phone-in-ten-seconds/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/12/new-bluetooth-vulnerabilit...
magduf 7y ago
This isn't a great analogy. The problem with guns is that it's mostly binary. Either you live in a society with guns, or without. You don't really have a choice once you're in that society: if you live in the US and don't like guns, that's too bad, because other people can have them, and they can shoot at you with them; you being anti-gun isn't going to help you much if some wacko decides to come to your school and shoot everyone. Or, if you live in Singapore and like guns, that's too bad, because you're not allowed to own one there at all, and if someone somehow manages to smuggle one in and shoot at you, you won't be able to shoot back. >Android gives you more freedom to choose different devices, but at the cost of most devices not getting security and OS updates. The key here is you have choice, and your choice completely changes your experience. So if you get some crappy Android device from a mfgr that doesn't bother with security and OS updates, you could be infected with malware. Whereas if you get a good Android device from a mfgr that does regular updates, you're much less likely to be infected. >Likewise, Android gives you the freedom to side-load all kinds of things onto your devices, and of course the Android ecosystem is chock-full of malware. Again, your choice changes your experience. No one is forcing you to side-load apps. If you want to stick with the curated Google Play store (like 99% of users), you can do that. And even there, if you're careful about which apps you load, and stick only to well-known and reputable ones, then again you'll probably avoid any malware problems. No one is forcing you to install some random Chinese-made app that's obviously malware, even though those do exist on the Play store unfortunately. Unlike with guns, the fact that other people with other phones may be installing malware on their devices doesn't affect you: you're not going to get malware because some differnt mfgr doesn't do updates, or because some apps that you never install are malware and are available on the Play store.

shadowgovt 7y ago

Apart from the fact that an Android that has side-loaded malware probably(1) won't shoot five innocent bystanders, I think this is a good analogy. (1) Probably. It's an open source OS, so no telling categorically what hardware it's driving ;)

judge2020 7y ago
Wait for a kickstarter for a phone-gun hybrid with a "shoot" button available to the phone.

aianus 7y ago

This also mirrors Chinese vs. American values perfectly. The Chinese believe in the Apple model of safety, greater good, social harmony, and the ends justifying the means over individual liberties. The concentration camps, great firewall, IP theft, everything we see as dysfunctional about China stems from this belief system. Americans don't believe in the "greater good" or "the ends justify the means" and it results in uniquely American dysfunctions like mass shootings and homeless people shitting in the street in SF. Still, like you, I have no interest in switching to the other camp. It is a basic value system ingrained in me.

moogleii 7y ago
This is a terrible generalization and greatly conflates the people and the government of China, which has been ignoring philosophers and politicians extolling such values for decades.
chapium 7y ago
I'd hope that a society can believe in a collective good without resorting to concentration camps.
CharlesColeman 7y ago
> This also mirrors Chinese vs. American values perfectly. > The Chinese believe in the Apple model of safety, greater good, social harmony, and the ends justifying the means over individual liberties. The concentration camps, great firewall, IP theft, everything we see as dysfunctional about China stems from this belief system. By "Chinese" do you mean the Chinese people, Chinese culture, of the Communist Party of China?
magduf 7y ago
As the other responder says, this is a terrible generalization. Japan also has a society where the greater good and social harmony are highly valued, and they don't have things like concentration camps, a great firewall, IP theft, etc. However, in the US, we do have concentration camps. We call them "migrant detention centers", and people are forced to drink water from the toilet there, and small children are forcibly separate from their mothers. It seems to me that the US is more similar to China than you think.

amatecha 7y ago

It has nothing to do with gun control. An analogy isn't necessary to understand that one platform regularly has software that was vetted and released on its _official software distribution platform_ that contains malware/spyware and trojans. Here's one from last year[0]. I don't expect my smartphone to be "open" and fulfilling my principles of "freedom". I do expect that from my _computer_, but I don't carry my computer in my pocket and across borders and put it in other peoples' hands to show them photos (for example). I also don't connect my computer to unknown wireless networks, whereas my smartphone has bluetooth enabled[1] and is basically constantly connected to unfamiliar wireless networks (work/hotel/cafe/library/neighbour/etc.), any of which may include malicious actors who are scanning for vulnerable devices. A pretty solid use case for which I'll choose the device that is far less likely to be owned. [0] https://www.symantec.com/blogs/expert-perspectives/ongoing-android-malware-campaign-targets-palestinians-part-1 https://www.symantec.com/blogs/expert-perspectives/ongoing-a... [1] https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/12/new-bluetooth-vulnerability-can-hack-a-phone-in-ten-seconds/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/12/new-bluetooth-vulnerabilit...

magduf 7y ago

This isn't a great analogy. The problem with guns is that it's mostly binary. Either you live in a society with guns, or without. You don't really have a choice once you're in that society: if you live in the US and don't like guns, that's too bad, because other people can have them, and they can shoot at you with them; you being anti-gun isn't going to help you much if some wacko decides to come to your school and shoot everyone. Or, if you live in Singapore and like guns, that's too bad, because you're not allowed to own one there at all, and if someone somehow manages to smuggle one in and shoot at you, you won't be able to shoot back. >Android gives you more freedom to choose different devices, but at the cost of most devices not getting security and OS updates. The key here is you have choice, and your choice completely changes your experience. So if you get some crappy Android device from a mfgr that doesn't bother with security and OS updates, you could be infected with malware. Whereas if you get a good Android device from a mfgr that does regular updates, you're much less likely to be infected. >Likewise, Android gives you the freedom to side-load all kinds of things onto your devices, and of course the Android ecosystem is chock-full of malware. Again, your choice changes your experience. No one is forcing you to side-load apps. If you want to stick with the curated Google Play store (like 99% of users), you can do that. And even there, if you're careful about which apps you load, and stick only to well-known and reputable ones, then again you'll probably avoid any malware problems. No one is forcing you to install some random Chinese-made app that's obviously malware, even though those do exist on the Play store unfortunately. Unlike with guns, the fact that other people with other phones may be installing malware on their devices doesn't affect you: you're not going to get malware because some differnt mfgr doesn't do updates, or because some apps that you never install are malware and are available on the Play store.