5 ms·

BYO software is my #3 consumer electronics question (after form factor & 'does it work at all') and drivers are an important frontier of this. SO TIRED of down

BYO software is my #3 consumer electronics question (after form factor & 'does it work at all') and drivers are an important frontier of this. SO TIRED of downloading blobs to have wifi on linux. AFAIK there isn't even a usb wifi dongle that has an open source wifi driver, much less a commercial wifi chipset. even companies that are in theory dedicated to quality are teetering on the edge of using software to enable planned obsolescence -- and also releasing unpleasant product changes in line with security updates. coreboot particularly interesting because of the TOTP work people have been doing on the TPM for tamper detection.

floatboth 7y ago
Most Wi-Fi blobs are not blob drivers, they're firmware that runs on the Wi-Fi card. For Intel Wi-Fi, FreeBSD includes the firmware out-of-the-box, many Linux distros do the same I'm sure.
- isantop 7y ago
  Yeah, the actual Intel WiFi driver is afiak open source. It's the firmware that's not.
- awinter-py 7y ago
  wait what's the difference? driver runs in kernel, firmware runs in card?
  - Avery3R 7y ago
    Yeah
    - awinter-py 7y ago
      are there tools for parsing the firmware bin? are they a threat vector? is it like a settings file?
      - yellowapple 7y ago
        > are there tools for parsing the firmware bin? Besides a hex editor, probably not. > are they a threat vector? As much as any other opaque software (i.e. not FOSS or otherwise transparent around source code auditing by arbitrary third parties). That is, in short: yes. > is it like a settings file? No, it's more like the operating system for the wireless card itself, running on the card's own microprocessor.
      - Skunkleton 7y ago
        Every modern computer has many independent processors, and they all need to execute software from somewhere. Many of these independent processors load their software from some sort of onboard memory, others rely on the main processor to load their software. The second case is what these blobs are for the most part.
      - allset_ 7y ago
        >are there tools for parsing the firmware bin? Binwalk, IDA pro, etc. All the normal reverse engineering tools. >are they a threat vector? Absolutely. >is it like a settings file? No, it's code executing on the WiFi card.
  - akeck 7y ago
    I think it is, or includes, the baseband firmware for the actual wifi radio. I believe, but I'm not 100% sure, that the FCC has specific restrictions on how baseband radio firmware gets distributed.
    - madez 7y ago
      You, and everyone else for that matter, can go and buy a software defined radio (SDR) and play with a radio to your hearts liking. If there is a restriction on redistribution of open down to the radio firmware WiFi devices, then it's dumb. If there is none, please don't spread incorrect speculation that there is.
      - ac29 7y ago
        > You, and everyone else for that matter, can go and buy a software defined radio (SDR) and play with a radio to your hearts liking. You almost certainly cant transmit legally, though (unless you have a amateur radio license, which lets you do all sorts of stuff with useful amounts of power).
        tpearson-raptor 7y ago
        That depends heavily on where you're transmitting (i.e what frequency and bandwidth you use) along with the power you're transmitting at. First, as a ham radio operator, no, you can't just go and start blasting away from an SDR even in the ham bands. You have to follow strict rules, including a non-commercial content rule and you must not use encryption. The ham bands are for people to experiment with new radio technologies and more importantly communicate with one another using those technologies on a hobbyist level -- encryption and commercial use does not help those goals. That being said, there are chunks of radio spectrum that are effectively "public domain" where you can transmit within certain ERP (effective radiated power) limits without the ham band restrictions on content, protocol, etc. Traditional WiFi lives in one -- the block set aside for microwave cooking devices, and therefore with a near-unusable noise floor for anything but short range communication like household WiFi.
      - 7y ago
Avery3R 7y ago
>there isn't even a usb wifi dongle that has an open source wifi driver Qualcomm atheros?
- awinter-py 7y ago
  they have OSS firmware for some devices, but not recent ones it seems like? https://github.com/qca/open-ath9k-htc-firmware https://github.com/qca/open-ath9k-htc-firmware
yellowapple 7y ago
Atheros chipsets tend to not require any non-free code (be it on the driver or firmware side), including their USB wifi dongles. I've had mediocre (at best) experiences with them, however, what with frequent stability and signal strength issues on what I'm pretty sure to be the hardware side (though I've found this is true of pretty much every wifi chipset out there, so I guess it's okay relatively-speaking).
- throwaway2048 7y ago
  This used to be true, but since Qualcomm bought them out, they have done a complete 180 and basically reverted to totally closed designs (closed firmware, closed drivers, no spec sheet). The 9xxx chip-sets (which are only 802.11n) are the last ones designed before Qualcomm took over, the 10xxx chip-sets (802.11AC+) are closed and completely locked down, you cant even change your MAC address its all stuffed into a giant psuedo-driver firmware blob.
  - yellowapple 7y ago
    Well that sucks.
  - snagglegaggle 7y ago
    Are there any "open" 802.11ac chipsets? A quick search didn't find any.
    - throwaway2048 7y ago
      No, closest thing is the mediatek chip-sets that at least dont enforce wifi parameters via firmware (fullmac vs softmac).
      - madez 7y ago
        Things are getting worse, not better, on many fronts when it comes to user freedom and control over their devices. Apparently many responsible engineers in this area lack the ethical consideration of their work. The more I see this, the more I worry about bridges, airplanes, and every other piece of technology that is developed by engineers that may or may not have ethical principles.
m463 7y ago
I bought a purism laptop years ago, and it had zero blobs. It also had really really standard hardware: no special screws to open the case, standard memory, m.2 and hard drive, a standard power supply with a barrel jack, etc. I believe system76 was less expensive but had blobs. Unsure about the hardware details.
- tpearson-raptor 7y ago
  Oh? Zero blobs, so no ME or PSP? No FSP or AGESA? No EC firmware or integrated GPU firmware? Sorry, I call BS on that unless it was a long time ago, as in Core 2 Duo era.
  - m463 7y ago
    I have a purism 13 first version. I didn't have to unblock non-free repos when installing linux at first. (I now run arch) As to booting, it originally shipped with a bios, but later offered coreboot which I believe disabled the ME. https://puri.sm/posts/purism-librem-laptops-completely-disable-intel-management-engine/ https://puri.sm/posts/purism-librem-laptops-completely-disab... https://puri.sm/learn/blobs/ https://puri.sm/learn/blobs/ https://puri.sm/coreboot/ https://puri.sm/coreboot/
    - tpearson-raptor 7y ago
      Your laptop is Broadwell according to the coreboot source. Sorry, that means you've got a ME. Part of one (the BUP) but a required ME nonetheless: https://www.coreboot.org/Intel_Management_Engine https://www.coreboot.org/Intel_Management_Engine
      - m463 7y ago
        They said it was neutralized. -- I see now why your comment was so strongly worded... "I know we would be interested in assisting System76 (or other prebuilt system OEMs) to start offering POWER products as true open source, owner controlled alternatives to Intel and AMD" Although what you're doing is laudable, I think your form of communication might alienate the kinds of people who might support your mission.

floatboth 7y ago

Most Wi-Fi blobs are not blob drivers, they're firmware that runs on the Wi-Fi card. For Intel Wi-Fi, FreeBSD includes the firmware out-of-the-box, many Linux distros do the same I'm sure.

isantop 7y ago
Yeah, the actual Intel WiFi driver is afiak open source. It's the firmware that's not.
awinter-py 7y ago
wait what's the difference? driver runs in kernel, firmware runs in card?
- Avery3R 7y ago
  Yeah
  - awinter-py 7y ago
    are there tools for parsing the firmware bin? are they a threat vector? is it like a settings file?
    - yellowapple 7y ago
      > are there tools for parsing the firmware bin? Besides a hex editor, probably not. > are they a threat vector? As much as any other opaque software (i.e. not FOSS or otherwise transparent around source code auditing by arbitrary third parties). That is, in short: yes. > is it like a settings file? No, it's more like the operating system for the wireless card itself, running on the card's own microprocessor.
    - Skunkleton 7y ago
      Every modern computer has many independent processors, and they all need to execute software from somewhere. Many of these independent processors load their software from some sort of onboard memory, others rely on the main processor to load their software. The second case is what these blobs are for the most part.
    - allset_ 7y ago
      >are there tools for parsing the firmware bin? Binwalk, IDA pro, etc. All the normal reverse engineering tools. >are they a threat vector? Absolutely. >is it like a settings file? No, it's code executing on the WiFi card.
- akeck 7y ago
  I think it is, or includes, the baseband firmware for the actual wifi radio. I believe, but I'm not 100% sure, that the FCC has specific restrictions on how baseband radio firmware gets distributed.
  - madez 7y ago
    You, and everyone else for that matter, can go and buy a software defined radio (SDR) and play with a radio to your hearts liking. If there is a restriction on redistribution of open down to the radio firmware WiFi devices, then it's dumb. If there is none, please don't spread incorrect speculation that there is.
    - ac29 7y ago
      > You, and everyone else for that matter, can go and buy a software defined radio (SDR) and play with a radio to your hearts liking. You almost certainly cant transmit legally, though (unless you have a amateur radio license, which lets you do all sorts of stuff with useful amounts of power).
      - tpearson-raptor 7y ago
        That depends heavily on where you're transmitting (i.e what frequency and bandwidth you use) along with the power you're transmitting at. First, as a ham radio operator, no, you can't just go and start blasting away from an SDR even in the ham bands. You have to follow strict rules, including a non-commercial content rule and you must not use encryption. The ham bands are for people to experiment with new radio technologies and more importantly communicate with one another using those technologies on a hobbyist level -- encryption and commercial use does not help those goals. That being said, there are chunks of radio spectrum that are effectively "public domain" where you can transmit within certain ERP (effective radiated power) limits without the ham band restrictions on content, protocol, etc. Traditional WiFi lives in one -- the block set aside for microwave cooking devices, and therefore with a near-unusable noise floor for anything but short range communication like household WiFi.
    - 7y ago

Avery3R 7y ago

>there isn't even a usb wifi dongle that has an open source wifi driver Qualcomm atheros?

awinter-py 7y ago
they have OSS firmware for some devices, but not recent ones it seems like? https://github.com/qca/open-ath9k-htc-firmware https://github.com/qca/open-ath9k-htc-firmware

yellowapple 7y ago

Atheros chipsets tend to not require any non-free code (be it on the driver or firmware side), including their USB wifi dongles. I've had mediocre (at best) experiences with them, however, what with frequent stability and signal strength issues on what I'm pretty sure to be the hardware side (though I've found this is true of pretty much every wifi chipset out there, so I guess it's okay relatively-speaking).

throwaway2048 7y ago
This used to be true, but since Qualcomm bought them out, they have done a complete 180 and basically reverted to totally closed designs (closed firmware, closed drivers, no spec sheet). The 9xxx chip-sets (which are only 802.11n) are the last ones designed before Qualcomm took over, the 10xxx chip-sets (802.11AC+) are closed and completely locked down, you cant even change your MAC address its all stuffed into a giant psuedo-driver firmware blob.
- yellowapple 7y ago
  Well that sucks.
- snagglegaggle 7y ago
  Are there any "open" 802.11ac chipsets? A quick search didn't find any.
  - throwaway2048 7y ago
    No, closest thing is the mediatek chip-sets that at least dont enforce wifi parameters via firmware (fullmac vs softmac).
    - madez 7y ago
      Things are getting worse, not better, on many fronts when it comes to user freedom and control over their devices. Apparently many responsible engineers in this area lack the ethical consideration of their work. The more I see this, the more I worry about bridges, airplanes, and every other piece of technology that is developed by engineers that may or may not have ethical principles.

m463 7y ago

I bought a purism laptop years ago, and it had zero blobs. It also had really really standard hardware: no special screws to open the case, standard memory, m.2 and hard drive, a standard power supply with a barrel jack, etc. I believe system76 was less expensive but had blobs. Unsure about the hardware details.

tpearson-raptor 7y ago
Oh? Zero blobs, so no ME or PSP? No FSP or AGESA? No EC firmware or integrated GPU firmware? Sorry, I call BS on that unless it was a long time ago, as in Core 2 Duo era.
- m463 7y ago
  I have a purism 13 first version. I didn't have to unblock non-free repos when installing linux at first. (I now run arch) As to booting, it originally shipped with a bios, but later offered coreboot which I believe disabled the ME. https://puri.sm/posts/purism-librem-laptops-completely-disable-intel-management-engine/ https://puri.sm/posts/purism-librem-laptops-completely-disab... https://puri.sm/learn/blobs/ https://puri.sm/learn/blobs/ https://puri.sm/coreboot/ https://puri.sm/coreboot/
  - tpearson-raptor 7y ago
    Your laptop is Broadwell according to the coreboot source. Sorry, that means you've got a ME. Part of one (the BUP) but a required ME nonetheless: https://www.coreboot.org/Intel_Management_Engine https://www.coreboot.org/Intel_Management_Engine
    - m463 7y ago
      They said it was neutralized. -- I see now why your comment was so strongly worded... "I know we would be interested in assisting System76 (or other prebuilt system OEMs) to start offering POWER products as true open source, owner controlled alternatives to Intel and AMD" Although what you're doing is laudable, I think your form of communication might alienate the kinds of people who might support your mission.