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So you can of course side load apps more easily on Android, but it isn’t super easy. I guess that matters less when people are motivated. But... if this statem

So you can of course side load apps more easily on Android, but it isn’t super easy. I guess that matters less when people are motivated. But... if this statement were true in spirit as well then why don’t we see google seizing this PR opportunity and making statements about the superiority of their App Store’s more liberal model? Why do we instead see Google quietly removing HK-protest related apps too? I guess the moral is that both Apple and Google will kowtow to the desires of the Chinese government in these cases and it’s mostly circumstantial that Google cannot so thoroughly lock down their systems

parliament32 7y ago
>it isn’t super easy In settings, enable "allow installation of apps from unknown sources". Then download the .apk file from your web browser / dropbox / whatever, and tap to install. It's literally a single-setting toggle to let you install any apk from anywhere. >Google quietly removing HK-protest related apps Like what? The app that Apple removed is alive and well in the Play Store: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=live.hkmap.app&hl=en_US https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=live.hkmap.app...
- dan-robertson 7y ago
  Example here: https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/10/10/revolution-times-hong-kong-protester-role-playing-game-suspended-google-play-store https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/10/10/revolution-times-hong-... Though I concede that this app is more objectively pro-protestor (rather than general public safety) and the statements from google feel more like generic policy than obvious bowing to pressure.
  - vatueil 7y ago
    Apparently it was removed because it included in-app purchases and there's a rule against profiting off of tragedies: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-protests-google/google-pulls-hong-kong-protester-role-playing-app-idUSKBN1WP2E6 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-protests-google/... > A Google spokesman said that “The Revolution Of Our Times” app, which lets users role-play as Hong Kong protesters, violated a long-standing policy “prohibiting developers from capitalizing on sensitive events, such as attempting to make money from serious ongoing conflicts or tragedies through a game”. I guess if they remove the IAPs it would be okay?
grawprog 7y ago
>but it isn’t super easy It's pretty easy, in fact when I got a new phone and tried to install the f-droid apk, android took me directly to the setting to toggle side loading apps. The permissions seemed even a little more fine grained than before with a seperate one to allow f-droid to install apps also, but still only one tap away once I actually tried to do it.
- dan-robertson 7y ago
  I don’t disagree that you found it easy. I’ve done this in the past and found it easy too. But the things that you or I may find easy are not necessarily easy to the large fraction of the population who are not particularly good with technology. I’m not sure how I found F-droid. I think it was from knowing I wanted free software, finding myself overwhelmed with crap in the regular App Store and some combination of luck/determination. In the case of the protests in Hong Kong I think there is sufficient motivation to go through these potentially tricky/scary steps and there would, if necessary, surely be resources on how to do it. But that’s also a situation where following instructions from some crowd to download some apps from some non-google source is risky. It seems that if people were doing this then it wouldn’t be long until there was a reasonable chance of being tricked into downloading CCP-sponsored malware
  - grawprog 7y ago
    I'm not sure if you actually read most of what I said or are just responding to the part where I said it was easy, but, at least on android 9, it automatically takes you to the setting as soon as you try to open an apk, acquiring which, is pretty much exactly the same as downloading an .exe file on a computer. Depending on your browser, it will even ask if you want to open the file upon completion, thereby taking you to the 'enable apps from unknown sources' option without even leaving your web browser. I like to have faith that most people capable of downloading and opening a file from the internet, should be able to read a message pop up and tap a toggle button.
Faark 7y ago
> mostly circumstantial that Google cannot so thoroughly lock down their systems You can say the same about any end to end encrypted service. Setting yourself up to not be able to bow to unreasonable request is the best defense and can be quite the extra effort. And I'm thankful for companies doing so. Thing I don't understand why Apple made that decision. In their position I'd would have fought very hard to get gov (preferably HK) order the removal and then just "having to comply". But it's probably the natural consequence of wanting to curate entire availability beyond just in-store generate content (e.g. advertising, search ranking and so on). Again, it matters what you set yourself up to be.
- dan-robertson 7y ago
  Yeah I agree that it’s a bit nuanced but I’m not convinced that the reason for it was a moral stance about user liberty. I think it was more straightforward: this was how non-Apple phones worked and it was how computers worked, so it possibly didn’t require much effort to think to lock down the OS. Of course I think many people at google at the time would have been in favour of that decision. I wonder if google would make the same decision today, and I wonder who would argue for which sides about it.
shpongled 7y ago
I remember when Google's motto was "Don't be evil". Sad to see these companies teaming up with authoritarian dictatorships actively involved in keeping ethnic groups in concentration camps and harvesting the organs of political prisoners.
- computerex 7y ago
  How did you just turn this against Google? Google still has kept the app in the android app store. It's Apple that removed it at the first sign of pressure from China because Apple has no spine.
Wowfunhappy 7y ago
> So you can of course side load apps more easily on Android, but it isn’t super easy. I guess that matters less when people are motivated. Well, there's a balance here. If it's too easy, some users will be tricked into installing malware. I think Android is a good compromise. If you're even a tiny bit technically inclined, you can enable sideloading in a couple of minutes at most, and it's a one-time process.
- dkonofalski 7y ago
  >you can enable sideloading in a couple of minutes at most How does that not fit your definition of "too easy"? If it can be disabled in minutes and any attempt to install an unauthorized APK takes you right to the screen, it seems completely pointless.
  - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
    Taking users right to the screen in settings strikes me as a less-than-ideal decision—is that true in the most recent version of stock Android? I recall having to navigate there myself, but I could be wrong. Regardless, I think there's a world of difference between "Tap an app to install and run" and "tap an app and move through several dialogue boxes, which include a scary security warning." It's not perfect, but it's leagues better than Apple's alternative...

parliament32 7y ago

>it isn’t super easy In settings, enable "allow installation of apps from unknown sources". Then download the .apk file from your web browser / dropbox / whatever, and tap to install. It's literally a single-setting toggle to let you install any apk from anywhere. >Google quietly removing HK-protest related apps Like what? The app that Apple removed is alive and well in the Play Store: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=live.hkmap.app&hl=en_US https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=live.hkmap.app...

dan-robertson 7y ago
Example here: https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/10/10/revolution-times-hong-kong-protester-role-playing-game-suspended-google-play-store https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/10/10/revolution-times-hong-... Though I concede that this app is more objectively pro-protestor (rather than general public safety) and the statements from google feel more like generic policy than obvious bowing to pressure.
- vatueil 7y ago
  Apparently it was removed because it included in-app purchases and there's a rule against profiting off of tragedies: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-protests-google/google-pulls-hong-kong-protester-role-playing-app-idUSKBN1WP2E6 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-protests-google/... > A Google spokesman said that “The Revolution Of Our Times” app, which lets users role-play as Hong Kong protesters, violated a long-standing policy “prohibiting developers from capitalizing on sensitive events, such as attempting to make money from serious ongoing conflicts or tragedies through a game”. I guess if they remove the IAPs it would be okay?

grawprog 7y ago

>but it isn’t super easy It's pretty easy, in fact when I got a new phone and tried to install the f-droid apk, android took me directly to the setting to toggle side loading apps. The permissions seemed even a little more fine grained than before with a seperate one to allow f-droid to install apps also, but still only one tap away once I actually tried to do it.

dan-robertson 7y ago
I don’t disagree that you found it easy. I’ve done this in the past and found it easy too. But the things that you or I may find easy are not necessarily easy to the large fraction of the population who are not particularly good with technology. I’m not sure how I found F-droid. I think it was from knowing I wanted free software, finding myself overwhelmed with crap in the regular App Store and some combination of luck/determination. In the case of the protests in Hong Kong I think there is sufficient motivation to go through these potentially tricky/scary steps and there would, if necessary, surely be resources on how to do it. But that’s also a situation where following instructions from some crowd to download some apps from some non-google source is risky. It seems that if people were doing this then it wouldn’t be long until there was a reasonable chance of being tricked into downloading CCP-sponsored malware
- grawprog 7y ago
  I'm not sure if you actually read most of what I said or are just responding to the part where I said it was easy, but, at least on android 9, it automatically takes you to the setting as soon as you try to open an apk, acquiring which, is pretty much exactly the same as downloading an .exe file on a computer. Depending on your browser, it will even ask if you want to open the file upon completion, thereby taking you to the 'enable apps from unknown sources' option without even leaving your web browser. I like to have faith that most people capable of downloading and opening a file from the internet, should be able to read a message pop up and tap a toggle button.

Faark 7y ago

> mostly circumstantial that Google cannot so thoroughly lock down their systems You can say the same about any end to end encrypted service. Setting yourself up to not be able to bow to unreasonable request is the best defense and can be quite the extra effort. And I'm thankful for companies doing so. Thing I don't understand why Apple made that decision. In their position I'd would have fought very hard to get gov (preferably HK) order the removal and then just "having to comply". But it's probably the natural consequence of wanting to curate entire availability beyond just in-store generate content (e.g. advertising, search ranking and so on). Again, it matters what you set yourself up to be.

dan-robertson 7y ago
Yeah I agree that it’s a bit nuanced but I’m not convinced that the reason for it was a moral stance about user liberty. I think it was more straightforward: this was how non-Apple phones worked and it was how computers worked, so it possibly didn’t require much effort to think to lock down the OS. Of course I think many people at google at the time would have been in favour of that decision. I wonder if google would make the same decision today, and I wonder who would argue for which sides about it.

shpongled 7y ago

I remember when Google's motto was "Don't be evil". Sad to see these companies teaming up with authoritarian dictatorships actively involved in keeping ethnic groups in concentration camps and harvesting the organs of political prisoners.

computerex 7y ago
How did you just turn this against Google? Google still has kept the app in the android app store. It's Apple that removed it at the first sign of pressure from China because Apple has no spine.

Wowfunhappy 7y ago

> So you can of course side load apps more easily on Android, but it isn’t super easy. I guess that matters less when people are motivated. Well, there's a balance here. If it's too easy, some users will be tricked into installing malware. I think Android is a good compromise. If you're even a tiny bit technically inclined, you can enable sideloading in a couple of minutes at most, and it's a one-time process.

dkonofalski 7y ago
>you can enable sideloading in a couple of minutes at most How does that not fit your definition of "too easy"? If it can be disabled in minutes and any attempt to install an unauthorized APK takes you right to the screen, it seems completely pointless.
- Wowfunhappy 7y ago
  Taking users right to the screen in settings strikes me as a less-than-ideal decision—is that true in the most recent version of stock Android? I recall having to navigate there myself, but I could be wrong. Regardless, I think there's a world of difference between "Tap an app to install and run" and "tap an app and move through several dialogue boxes, which include a scary security warning." It's not perfect, but it's leagues better than Apple's alternative...