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This is why Apple will always be a second-class citizen to Android. If I have a good reason, I can toggle a setting and install APKs built by anyone. If I have

This is why Apple will always be a second-class citizen to Android. If I have a good reason, I can toggle a setting and install APKs built by anyone. If I have a good reason, I can wipe my phone and unlock the bootloader to literally replace and de-Google the entire OS. When I buy a phone, it's a hardware product I'm buying. Just like when you buy a PC/laptop, what you run on it is your business, not the manufacturers. It's certain nice that Dell pre-loads Windows 10 on their laptops, but if I want to run Linux, I can. >but I want my phone to just work You also have the freedom to stay in the walled garden. The difference is you have to option to run different software if you so choose, and having that freedom is so much more important to me than how slick the UI is or how good the ecosystem is. I don't own any Apple products, although I was strongly considering switching to iPhone a few years back. These recent developments confirm that I definitely made the right choice staying with Android.

__m 7y ago
Why? You want to meddle in politics of foreign countries?
- arghwhat 7y ago
  Not as much "meddle in politics of foreign countries" as "help fellow humans avoid disasters".
- parliament32 7y ago
  Because I know my phone won't betray me if I end up getting into a situation like these protesters. I own it, it'll run the code I want, full stop.
- NicoJuicy 7y ago
  1 country, 2 systems. But one is not keeping it's promise obviously.
- gadabout 7y ago
  This seems like a purposely antagonistic comment? The user was stating how freedom is much more entangled into our everyday purchase and use of our devices. Also, what happens to your mindset when the "foreign countries" are no longer foreign and now domestic?
  - lighthazard 7y ago
    This is a bot account. Look at user's comments. > By staying out of it. Hongkong belongs to China just as Catalonia belongs to Spain, or California to the US. Imagine China interfering with that.
    - dTal 7y ago
      Just because you disagree with someone's comments doesn't make them a bot. They look pretty human to me.
- jethro_tell 7y ago
  It's not really politics, cutting kidneys out of people isn't really politics. Ignoring human rights violations because it's "Just internal politics" is crazy. Is it a family matter if the father is abusing his kids? The same goes for countries. Likewise, letting Hong Kong go back to that fucked up dystopia by hampering their ability to organize is messed up.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
squarefoot 7y ago
"This is why Apple will always be a second-class citizen to Android." Android wouldn't allow an app to be installed on official phones if Google didn't want so, and unofficial ones are built in China anyway plus often already ridden with spyware. The only workaround would be a 100% FOSS phone where the user is king and decides what would run or not. Pine64.org devs, are you listening?
- shadowgovt 7y ago
  Can Android kick out APKs that are side-loaded? And if they can, what stops a user from swizzling identifiers for the APK and reinstalling it?
  - squarefoot 7y ago
    The problem with Android is its mostly closed nature, so there are multiple places where malicious software could be placed by design, system apps and to a greater degree device drivers being the first obvious choice. By malicious I mean software that limits or acts against the user choices, not necessarily behaving like a virus.
    - computerex 7y ago
      Not sure what point you are making. Android isn't closed, the entire os is open source. If anything is closed it is iOS.
      - dwaite 7y ago
        AOSP, which is hardly ever run on its own, is open source. Things like the Play store are entirely closed source. A majority of the API shipped by the Play store are closed source. Many hardware drivers are closed source. The majority of the operating system is Apache licensed, allowing a handset maker to ship modified components without publishing their changes. Many vendors also prevent the user from installing their own custom ROMs, so even a sophisticated user may not be able to run AOSP on an arbitrary device.
dan-robertson 7y ago
So you can of course side load apps more easily on Android, but it isn’t super easy. I guess that matters less when people are motivated. But... if this statement were true in spirit as well then why don’t we see google seizing this PR opportunity and making statements about the superiority of their App Store’s more liberal model? Why do we instead see Google quietly removing HK-protest related apps too? I guess the moral is that both Apple and Google will kowtow to the desires of the Chinese government in these cases and it’s mostly circumstantial that Google cannot so thoroughly lock down their systems
- parliament32 7y ago
  >it isn’t super easy In settings, enable "allow installation of apps from unknown sources". Then download the .apk file from your web browser / dropbox / whatever, and tap to install. It's literally a single-setting toggle to let you install any apk from anywhere. >Google quietly removing HK-protest related apps Like what? The app that Apple removed is alive and well in the Play Store: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=live.hkmap.app&hl=en_US https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=live.hkmap.app...
  - dan-robertson 7y ago
    Example here: https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/10/10/revolution-times-hong-kong-protester-role-playing-game-suspended-google-play-store https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/10/10/revolution-times-hong-... Though I concede that this app is more objectively pro-protestor (rather than general public safety) and the statements from google feel more like generic policy than obvious bowing to pressure.
    - vatueil 7y ago
      Apparently it was removed because it included in-app purchases and there's a rule against profiting off of tragedies: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-protests-google/google-pulls-hong-kong-protester-role-playing-app-idUSKBN1WP2E6 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-protests-google/... > A Google spokesman said that “The Revolution Of Our Times” app, which lets users role-play as Hong Kong protesters, violated a long-standing policy “prohibiting developers from capitalizing on sensitive events, such as attempting to make money from serious ongoing conflicts or tragedies through a game”. I guess if they remove the IAPs it would be okay?
amatecha 7y ago
That's funny: "Apple will always be a second-class citizen to Android" You don't hear about 14 million iPhones being infected by malware[0], do you? Or malware stealing users' bank credentials[1]? Heck, there are people whose brand new phone comes pre-loaded with malware[2]. Oh, this one was just posted five hours ago -- applications on the Google Play store load with trojans and spyware[3]. I can keep going, but the point is: if any platform is "second-class", it's Android by far. I'll pick the one that doesn't have apps on its official App Store rooting my phone and installing spyware. [0] https://www.zdnet.com/article/copycat-android-malware-infected-14m-devices-rooted-8m-last-year/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/copycat-android-malware-infect... [1] https://android.gadgethacks.com/news/new-android-malware-is-emptying-peoples-bank-accounts-heres-protect-yourself-0175539/ https://android.gadgethacks.com/news/new-android-malware-is-... [2] https://android.stackexchange.com/questions/206574/how-to-remove-a-persistent-malware-that-downloads-unwanted-apps https://android.stackexchange.com/questions/206574/how-to-re... [3] https://www.zdnet.com/article/gaming-photo-apps-in-google-play-infect-android-handsets-with-malware/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/gaming-photo-apps-in-google-pl...
- braythwayt 7y ago
  This argument reminds me of the gun control argument. People in favour of "more guns" are fully aware that more guns means a more dangerous society. But they consider the freedom to choose whether to own guns more important than living in a statistically safer society. Whereas, people in favour of "gun control" consider the safety of society overall to be much more important than the freedom to own devices designed to kill people. To me, that's what Android vs iPhone represents with respect to freedom. Android gives you more freedom to choose different devices, but at the cost of most devices not getting security and OS updates. Likewise, Android gives you the freedom to side-load all kinds of things onto your devices, and of course the Android ecosystem is chock-full of malware. The proponent of freedom says, "Yes, I understand that this is a much more dangerous ecosystem, but I value the freedom to defend myself." The proponent of safety says, "There are some dangers that are best met by a centralized, platform defence, not by individuals." Philosophically, I understand both arguments, even if I am very clearly in one of the two camps with no interest whatsoever in switching to the other.
lolsal 7y ago
> When I buy a phone, it's a hardware product I'm buying. Not to me.
- computerex 7y ago
  What does that even mean? Can you elaborate at all?
  - lolsal 7y ago
    I honestly don't care about the hardware at all. The hardware/camera/storage/whatever has been good enough for years. I care about the customer support, service, and overall UX of using the device. The fact that I can't side load apks or ipas is a feature to me.
- gatherhunterer 7y ago
  This is where the comment goes into “my opinion is fact and dissenting opinions are wrong.” There are millions of Apple customers who get their preferred OS by buying hardware directly from the OS developer. This has been a viable business model for Apple for long enough to just laugh at that sentence. Hating Apple is an identity, like a political party, and some are too invested for their ego to allow for simple factual observations.
  - lolsal 7y ago
    I'm not sure I follow you. I was just providing a data point that says some people don't care about the hardware - just like how I buy a car, I don't really care about the details and being able to 'drop in' a replacement HVAC or 'add on' features like neon lights/headers/whatever because those features are not important to me.
blablabla123 7y ago
That's probably also the reason why GNU and FSF should get new momentum. In the 90s/00s there was good reason to get away from Windows because it was really unstable - and Apple being expensive and niche. Now both are kind of viable options for most things but the freedom to use whatever application one wants to use is definitely becoming more important.
- Nuzzerino 7y ago
  Just wanted to add that the FSF lists "Free phone operating system" at the top of their "priority projects" list as of January 2017: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns/priority-projects/ https://www.fsf.org/campaigns/priority-projects/
Nuzzerino 7y ago
Why does it have to be Android? It's another commercial closed-source OS and therefore the business interests controlling it will at some point conflict with a user's definition of freedom. There are FOSS alternatives easily found by searching.
- thekyle 7y ago
  > Why does it have to be Android? It's another commercial closed-source OS What do you mean? Android is FOSS not closed-source.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - Drdrdrq 7y ago
    Android is closed source. AOSP is open source (and pretty useless).
    - mda 7y ago
      Sorry, but, that is bollocks. How is it useless?
      - saagarjha 7y ago
        Most of the stuff that ships on the average Android device is closed-source and written by Google.
        Forbo 7y ago
        Cool. The question still stands, how does that make AOSP useless? For the vast majority of applications, I can find reasonable FOSS equivalents in F-Droid.
        saagarjha 7y ago
        I wouldn't call it "useless", but it's certainly not what most people would consider Android at that point.
pgcj_poster 7y ago
> If I have a good reason, I can toggle a setting and install APKs built by anyone. If I have a good reason, I can wipe my phone and unlock the bootloader to literally replace and de-Google the entire OS. This is not possible for many (and I suspect the majority of) android phones.
- joshmn 7y ago
  > This is not possible for many (and I suspect the majority of) android phones. But it is. You can install APKs from anyone on any phone. It's a feature of the OS. > I can wipe my phone and unlock the bootloader to literally replace and de-Google the entire OS. I've never had an Android phone I couldn't unlock and flash. From the original Evo to Pixel 2. I have an iPhone as of two months ago. I just wanted to try something new. The amount of restricted access to things is boggling. I can't even download an mp3 on Safari or Chrome. I thought I was doing something wrong and spent 2 hours trying to figure out what. Then I learned it was just the phone.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    > I've never had an Android phone I couldn't unlock and flash. From the original Evo to Pixel 2. Until you stray away from a handful of manufacturers that are nice enough to let you do this. > I can't even download an mp3 on Safari or Chrome. Safari has a download manager in iOS 13.
  - pgcj_poster 7y ago
    I'm sorry, I quoted more than I meant to. I was exclusively talking about unlocking the bootloader. > I've never had an Android phone I couldn't unlock and flash. I've been using Android as long as I've had a smart phone, and I've never had a phone that I could flash. You should remember that most people don't have expensive flagship model phones.
  - mmastrac 7y ago
    > From the original Evo to Pixel 2. We spent a good amount of time over a year keeping the Evo unlocked whenever HTC would try to patch things. I'd like to think that helped set the tone for bootloader unlockability going forward. But to be honest, I've been in the Nexus and Pixel ecosystem since then so I haven't really seen how things have shaped up

__m 7y ago

Why? You want to meddle in politics of foreign countries?

arghwhat 7y ago
Not as much "meddle in politics of foreign countries" as "help fellow humans avoid disasters".
parliament32 7y ago
Because I know my phone won't betray me if I end up getting into a situation like these protesters. I own it, it'll run the code I want, full stop.
NicoJuicy 7y ago
1 country, 2 systems. But one is not keeping it's promise obviously.
gadabout 7y ago
This seems like a purposely antagonistic comment? The user was stating how freedom is much more entangled into our everyday purchase and use of our devices. Also, what happens to your mindset when the "foreign countries" are no longer foreign and now domestic?
- lighthazard 7y ago
  This is a bot account. Look at user's comments. > By staying out of it. Hongkong belongs to China just as Catalonia belongs to Spain, or California to the US. Imagine China interfering with that.
  - dTal 7y ago
    Just because you disagree with someone's comments doesn't make them a bot. They look pretty human to me.
jethro_tell 7y ago
It's not really politics, cutting kidneys out of people isn't really politics. Ignoring human rights violations because it's "Just internal politics" is crazy. Is it a family matter if the father is abusing his kids? The same goes for countries. Likewise, letting Hong Kong go back to that fucked up dystopia by hampering their ability to organize is messed up.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

squarefoot 7y ago

"This is why Apple will always be a second-class citizen to Android." Android wouldn't allow an app to be installed on official phones if Google didn't want so, and unofficial ones are built in China anyway plus often already ridden with spyware. The only workaround would be a 100% FOSS phone where the user is king and decides what would run or not. Pine64.org devs, are you listening?

shadowgovt 7y ago
Can Android kick out APKs that are side-loaded? And if they can, what stops a user from swizzling identifiers for the APK and reinstalling it?
- squarefoot 7y ago
  The problem with Android is its mostly closed nature, so there are multiple places where malicious software could be placed by design, system apps and to a greater degree device drivers being the first obvious choice. By malicious I mean software that limits or acts against the user choices, not necessarily behaving like a virus.
  - computerex 7y ago
    Not sure what point you are making. Android isn't closed, the entire os is open source. If anything is closed it is iOS.
    - dwaite 7y ago
      AOSP, which is hardly ever run on its own, is open source. Things like the Play store are entirely closed source. A majority of the API shipped by the Play store are closed source. Many hardware drivers are closed source. The majority of the operating system is Apache licensed, allowing a handset maker to ship modified components without publishing their changes. Many vendors also prevent the user from installing their own custom ROMs, so even a sophisticated user may not be able to run AOSP on an arbitrary device.

dan-robertson 7y ago

So you can of course side load apps more easily on Android, but it isn’t super easy. I guess that matters less when people are motivated. But... if this statement were true in spirit as well then why don’t we see google seizing this PR opportunity and making statements about the superiority of their App Store’s more liberal model? Why do we instead see Google quietly removing HK-protest related apps too? I guess the moral is that both Apple and Google will kowtow to the desires of the Chinese government in these cases and it’s mostly circumstantial that Google cannot so thoroughly lock down their systems

parliament32 7y ago
>it isn’t super easy In settings, enable "allow installation of apps from unknown sources". Then download the .apk file from your web browser / dropbox / whatever, and tap to install. It's literally a single-setting toggle to let you install any apk from anywhere. >Google quietly removing HK-protest related apps Like what? The app that Apple removed is alive and well in the Play Store: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=live.hkmap.app&hl=en_US https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=live.hkmap.app...
- dan-robertson 7y ago
  Example here: https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/10/10/revolution-times-hong-kong-protester-role-playing-game-suspended-google-play-store https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/10/10/revolution-times-hong-... Though I concede that this app is more objectively pro-protestor (rather than general public safety) and the statements from google feel more like generic policy than obvious bowing to pressure.
  - vatueil 7y ago
    Apparently it was removed because it included in-app purchases and there's a rule against profiting off of tragedies: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-protests-google/google-pulls-hong-kong-protester-role-playing-app-idUSKBN1WP2E6 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-protests-google/... > A Google spokesman said that “The Revolution Of Our Times” app, which lets users role-play as Hong Kong protesters, violated a long-standing policy “prohibiting developers from capitalizing on sensitive events, such as attempting to make money from serious ongoing conflicts or tragedies through a game”. I guess if they remove the IAPs it would be okay?

amatecha 7y ago

That's funny: "Apple will always be a second-class citizen to Android" You don't hear about 14 million iPhones being infected by malware[0], do you? Or malware stealing users' bank credentials[1]? Heck, there are people whose brand new phone comes pre-loaded with malware[2]. Oh, this one was just posted five hours ago -- applications on the Google Play store load with trojans and spyware[3]. I can keep going, but the point is: if any platform is "second-class", it's Android by far. I'll pick the one that doesn't have apps on its official App Store rooting my phone and installing spyware. [0] https://www.zdnet.com/article/copycat-android-malware-infected-14m-devices-rooted-8m-last-year/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/copycat-android-malware-infect... [1] https://android.gadgethacks.com/news/new-android-malware-is-emptying-peoples-bank-accounts-heres-protect-yourself-0175539/ https://android.gadgethacks.com/news/new-android-malware-is-... [2] https://android.stackexchange.com/questions/206574/how-to-remove-a-persistent-malware-that-downloads-unwanted-apps https://android.stackexchange.com/questions/206574/how-to-re... [3] https://www.zdnet.com/article/gaming-photo-apps-in-google-play-infect-android-handsets-with-malware/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/gaming-photo-apps-in-google-pl...

braythwayt 7y ago
This argument reminds me of the gun control argument. People in favour of "more guns" are fully aware that more guns means a more dangerous society. But they consider the freedom to choose whether to own guns more important than living in a statistically safer society. Whereas, people in favour of "gun control" consider the safety of society overall to be much more important than the freedom to own devices designed to kill people. To me, that's what Android vs iPhone represents with respect to freedom. Android gives you more freedom to choose different devices, but at the cost of most devices not getting security and OS updates. Likewise, Android gives you the freedom to side-load all kinds of things onto your devices, and of course the Android ecosystem is chock-full of malware. The proponent of freedom says, "Yes, I understand that this is a much more dangerous ecosystem, but I value the freedom to defend myself." The proponent of safety says, "There are some dangers that are best met by a centralized, platform defence, not by individuals." Philosophically, I understand both arguments, even if I am very clearly in one of the two camps with no interest whatsoever in switching to the other.

lolsal 7y ago

> When I buy a phone, it's a hardware product I'm buying. Not to me.

computerex 7y ago
What does that even mean? Can you elaborate at all?
- lolsal 7y ago
  I honestly don't care about the hardware at all. The hardware/camera/storage/whatever has been good enough for years. I care about the customer support, service, and overall UX of using the device. The fact that I can't side load apks or ipas is a feature to me.
gatherhunterer 7y ago
This is where the comment goes into “my opinion is fact and dissenting opinions are wrong.” There are millions of Apple customers who get their preferred OS by buying hardware directly from the OS developer. This has been a viable business model for Apple for long enough to just laugh at that sentence. Hating Apple is an identity, like a political party, and some are too invested for their ego to allow for simple factual observations.
- lolsal 7y ago
  I'm not sure I follow you. I was just providing a data point that says some people don't care about the hardware - just like how I buy a car, I don't really care about the details and being able to 'drop in' a replacement HVAC or 'add on' features like neon lights/headers/whatever because those features are not important to me.

blablabla123 7y ago

That's probably also the reason why GNU and FSF should get new momentum. In the 90s/00s there was good reason to get away from Windows because it was really unstable - and Apple being expensive and niche. Now both are kind of viable options for most things but the freedom to use whatever application one wants to use is definitely becoming more important.

Nuzzerino 7y ago
Just wanted to add that the FSF lists "Free phone operating system" at the top of their "priority projects" list as of January 2017: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns/priority-projects/ https://www.fsf.org/campaigns/priority-projects/

Nuzzerino 7y ago

Why does it have to be Android? It's another commercial closed-source OS and therefore the business interests controlling it will at some point conflict with a user's definition of freedom. There are FOSS alternatives easily found by searching.

thekyle 7y ago
> Why does it have to be Android? It's another commercial closed-source OS What do you mean? Android is FOSS not closed-source.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- Drdrdrq 7y ago
  Android is closed source. AOSP is open source (and pretty useless).
  - mda 7y ago
    Sorry, but, that is bollocks. How is it useless?
    - saagarjha 7y ago
      Most of the stuff that ships on the average Android device is closed-source and written by Google.
      - Forbo 7y ago
        Cool. The question still stands, how does that make AOSP useless? For the vast majority of applications, I can find reasonable FOSS equivalents in F-Droid.
        saagarjha 7y ago
        I wouldn't call it "useless", but it's certainly not what most people would consider Android at that point.

pgcj_poster 7y ago

> If I have a good reason, I can toggle a setting and install APKs built by anyone. If I have a good reason, I can wipe my phone and unlock the bootloader to literally replace and de-Google the entire OS. This is not possible for many (and I suspect the majority of) android phones.

joshmn 7y ago
> This is not possible for many (and I suspect the majority of) android phones. But it is. You can install APKs from anyone on any phone. It's a feature of the OS. > I can wipe my phone and unlock the bootloader to literally replace and de-Google the entire OS. I've never had an Android phone I couldn't unlock and flash. From the original Evo to Pixel 2. I have an iPhone as of two months ago. I just wanted to try something new. The amount of restricted access to things is boggling. I can't even download an mp3 on Safari or Chrome. I thought I was doing something wrong and spent 2 hours trying to figure out what. Then I learned it was just the phone.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  > I've never had an Android phone I couldn't unlock and flash. From the original Evo to Pixel 2. Until you stray away from a handful of manufacturers that are nice enough to let you do this. > I can't even download an mp3 on Safari or Chrome. Safari has a download manager in iOS 13.
- pgcj_poster 7y ago
  I'm sorry, I quoted more than I meant to. I was exclusively talking about unlocking the bootloader. > I've never had an Android phone I couldn't unlock and flash. I've been using Android as long as I've had a smart phone, and I've never had a phone that I could flash. You should remember that most people don't have expensive flagship model phones.
- mmastrac 7y ago
  > From the original Evo to Pixel 2. We spent a good amount of time over a year keeping the Evo unlocked whenever HTC would try to patch things. I'd like to think that helped set the tone for bootloader unlockability going forward. But to be honest, I've been in the Nexus and Pixel ecosystem since then so I haven't really seen how things have shaped up