4 ms·

Why is Turkey in NATO? At this point Their behavior is nothing but antagonistic at best and downright nefarious at worst.

MeteOzturk 7y ago
What makes you say this? Could you please elaborate
ChuckNorris89 7y ago
Because decades ago during the early stages of the cold war, the US needed a place close to Russia to plant nukes and Eastern Europe was taken, so Turkey was the best option at the time. But now, with Eastern Europe and the Baltics part of NATO there are better options and Turkey's membership should be reviewed.
pi-victor 7y ago
because: a) Turkey is the (almost literal) culture gate between Europe and the Middle East, this is in itself very valuable. b) Largest army in Europe. c) Erdogan still has to restrain himself because he has treaties with NATO allies. Otherwise we might get a second unhinged Putin. That would cause a real headache for the EU that tries to stop immigrants from reaching its borders by millions.
- ReptileMan 7y ago
  The EU can always stop immigrants no matter the quantity if there is political will.
- remarkEon 7y ago
  >Turkey is the (almost literal) culture gate between Europe and the Middle East, this is in itself very valuable. If this were true why do ME refugees not want to stay there? >Largest army in Europe. Okay, but if they're more culturally similar to the ME, as your first point implies, than to e.g. Germany doesn't it become a little problematic for employing this army in NATO's current theater of operations? >Erdogan still has to restrain himself because he has treaties with NATO allies... This is a great argument for why entangling alliances with people who aren't really your friends or are too culturally distant to even pretend as much are a terrible, awful idea. I believe we fought a World War because of this once.
  - sahinabi 7y ago
    >If this were true why do ME refugees not want to stay there? In Europe, west of it, they could earn much more. They don't want to go Romania either for example.
  - soganess 7y ago
    They do, Turkey took in a share of Syrian refugees and really that can't be underplayed. But to answer your question, Erdogan not the coolest dude ever. Plus Turkey doesn't have the greatest history of human rights especially if you aren't Turkic in ethnicity. Just ask the Armenians, Greeks and Kurds(very much related to this issue). All of which happened in the last 100 years. In short, if you are getting displaced why not go the extra distance? Just because you've been violently displaced from your home (and everything you know) doesn't mean you can't have upward mobility ::eyeroll::.
  - ohduran 7y ago
    > This is a great argument for why entangling alliances with people who aren't really your friends or are too culturally distant to even pretend as much are a terrible, awful idea. I believe we fought a World War because of this once. People tend to forget that. Thanks for articulating it so well.
zwieback 7y ago
It made sense during the cold war but they need to be kicked out now.
- iddqd 7y ago
  If Turkey got kicked out of NATO on bad terms, who do you think will step in to fill the power vacuum?
  - remarkEon 7y ago
    What power vacuum? What power projection is Turkey really capable of?
    - dev_dull 7y ago
      Turkey is a huge trading partner to the US and not really a rival. They make the chassis to our next-gen fighter planes, for example. Why toss that aside?
      - remarkEon 7y ago
        Why toss that aside? I actually didn't know that the chassis for the F-35 is manufactured in Turkey. Do you have a source for this? If this is the case then it seems incredibly shortsighted to source a critical component from half-way around the world - from a country that obviously doesn't like us very much.
        swingbrother 7y ago
        Lately mentioned by Trump on Twitter: https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1181547331822456832 https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/11815473318224568...
        pmontra 7y ago
        https://www.f35.com/global/participation/turkey-industrial-participation https://www.f35.com/global/participation/turkey-industrial-p...
mda 7y ago
It cuts both ways, I am not sure US's sketchy and inconsistent behavior in Syria was in the interest of NATO either. This whole affair is a clusterf* and I don't think pushing Turkey further away will do any good to anyone. Also thankfully organizations like that are operated slightly better than HN and Reddit armchair strategists.
sahinabi 7y ago
Take a look at the number of Syrian refugees each country hosts, compare it to their population and GDP if you feel like it. Turkey have many problems dealing with its minorities, neighbours, even its own citizens, sure - but on this issue, maybe its time to get off your high horse, before calling any country nefarious. Are we really worse than Spain, worse than France, worse than UK? Why do they have a say in it without helping the problem in the slightest?
- ghostpepper 7y ago
  What about buying billions of dollars of weapons from Russia? Does that qualify as grounds for expulsion from NATO?
  - ListeningPie 7y ago
    How are buying weapons from Russia grounds for expulsion from Nato?
    - jbob2000 7y ago
      NATO was formed as a deterrence against Russian aggression. To then buy weapons from them is a pretty big conflict of interest.
  - ceejayoz 7y ago
    Depends a bit on whether those weapons have internet access. We used to pay people handsomely to get our hands on Russian weaponry to play with.
  - sahinabi 7y ago
    What about arming and aiding a terrorist organization who is fighting with your NATO ally? Does this qualify? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6AEyhHMnT4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6AEyhHMnT4
- remarkEon 7y ago
  NATO's charter isn't "refugee caretaker of the world". It's a mutual defense pact. I'm not interested in playing word games around who is the most humanitarian country (Turkey would lose that one anyway) - I asked a specific, strategic question about what benefit Turkey adds to the rest of NATO alliance members.
throwaway5752 7y ago
Because it's the least worse outcome (Nash equilibrium sense). Geopolitics don't work on feelings, they work on game theory.
yalph 7y ago
Vietnam and Iraq US killed 3 million civilians. Cant say that about Turkey. Why the hell is US in NATO?
yalph 7y ago
Get off your frigging high horse. Who are you to judge Erdogan when you consistently produce war criminal presidents.
- loceng 7y ago
  You understand it is bad actors, along with industrial complexes, leading to regulatory capture and bad policy - corruption - regardless of the country's name? It logically makes sense that the US having the strongest military in the world, being the most successful, leading capitalism - will be able to do the most damage by bad actors manipulating towards war and violence.
  - yalph 7y ago
    So shut the ff up about Erdogan. Its not the fault of Turkish citizens.
    - loceng 7y ago
      I didn't say anything about Erdogan - however, "two wrongs don't make a right." And to add - indeed it's not the fault of the Turkish citizens who are against the tyranny, and those are who we need to align with and help support. Likewise, the US needs support from the world to help counter the bad actors we have here. Or we can all just be angry at "everyone" and rage against innocent people - and watch the whole world burn.
unclesams-uncle 7y ago
If Turkey leaves NATO, they will further ally with Russia. Considering Turkey's strategic location, it's better to have Turkey in NATO instead of as an adversary, even if its leadership doesn't align with the values of other NATO members. Erdogan knows that he has a ton of leverage and chooses to maximize his advantage. There are a lot of moving pieces here. He's overcalculated a bit and his nationalist policy has hurt the Turkish economy. Likewise, many European countries rejecting Turkey's EU bids last decade on thinly-veiled Islamaphobic pretenses only strengthened his nationalist message at home. The west knows it, but they also know that they would rather have Turkey nominally on their side than not. It will probably take cooler heads and or a major economic downturn to shift that sentiment. Until then, Turkey maintains its seat in NATO.

MeteOzturk 7y ago

What makes you say this? Could you please elaborate

ChuckNorris89 7y ago

Because decades ago during the early stages of the cold war, the US needed a place close to Russia to plant nukes and Eastern Europe was taken, so Turkey was the best option at the time. But now, with Eastern Europe and the Baltics part of NATO there are better options and Turkey's membership should be reviewed.

pi-victor 7y ago

because: a) Turkey is the (almost literal) culture gate between Europe and the Middle East, this is in itself very valuable. b) Largest army in Europe. c) Erdogan still has to restrain himself because he has treaties with NATO allies. Otherwise we might get a second unhinged Putin. That would cause a real headache for the EU that tries to stop immigrants from reaching its borders by millions.

ReptileMan 7y ago
The EU can always stop immigrants no matter the quantity if there is political will.
remarkEon 7y ago
>Turkey is the (almost literal) culture gate between Europe and the Middle East, this is in itself very valuable. If this were true why do ME refugees not want to stay there? >Largest army in Europe. Okay, but if they're more culturally similar to the ME, as your first point implies, than to e.g. Germany doesn't it become a little problematic for employing this army in NATO's current theater of operations? >Erdogan still has to restrain himself because he has treaties with NATO allies... This is a great argument for why entangling alliances with people who aren't really your friends or are too culturally distant to even pretend as much are a terrible, awful idea. I believe we fought a World War because of this once.
- sahinabi 7y ago
  >If this were true why do ME refugees not want to stay there? In Europe, west of it, they could earn much more. They don't want to go Romania either for example.
- soganess 7y ago
  They do, Turkey took in a share of Syrian refugees and really that can't be underplayed. But to answer your question, Erdogan not the coolest dude ever. Plus Turkey doesn't have the greatest history of human rights especially if you aren't Turkic in ethnicity. Just ask the Armenians, Greeks and Kurds(very much related to this issue). All of which happened in the last 100 years. In short, if you are getting displaced why not go the extra distance? Just because you've been violently displaced from your home (and everything you know) doesn't mean you can't have upward mobility ::eyeroll::.
- ohduran 7y ago
  > This is a great argument for why entangling alliances with people who aren't really your friends or are too culturally distant to even pretend as much are a terrible, awful idea. I believe we fought a World War because of this once. People tend to forget that. Thanks for articulating it so well.

zwieback 7y ago

It made sense during the cold war but they need to be kicked out now.

iddqd 7y ago
If Turkey got kicked out of NATO on bad terms, who do you think will step in to fill the power vacuum?
- remarkEon 7y ago
  What power vacuum? What power projection is Turkey really capable of?
  - dev_dull 7y ago
    Turkey is a huge trading partner to the US and not really a rival. They make the chassis to our next-gen fighter planes, for example. Why toss that aside?
    - remarkEon 7y ago
      Why toss that aside? I actually didn't know that the chassis for the F-35 is manufactured in Turkey. Do you have a source for this? If this is the case then it seems incredibly shortsighted to source a critical component from half-way around the world - from a country that obviously doesn't like us very much.
      - swingbrother 7y ago
        Lately mentioned by Trump on Twitter: https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1181547331822456832 https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/11815473318224568...
      - pmontra 7y ago
        https://www.f35.com/global/participation/turkey-industrial-participation https://www.f35.com/global/participation/turkey-industrial-p...

mda 7y ago

It cuts both ways, I am not sure US's sketchy and inconsistent behavior in Syria was in the interest of NATO either. This whole affair is a clusterf* and I don't think pushing Turkey further away will do any good to anyone. Also thankfully organizations like that are operated slightly better than HN and Reddit armchair strategists.

sahinabi 7y ago

Take a look at the number of Syrian refugees each country hosts, compare it to their population and GDP if you feel like it. Turkey have many problems dealing with its minorities, neighbours, even its own citizens, sure - but on this issue, maybe its time to get off your high horse, before calling any country nefarious. Are we really worse than Spain, worse than France, worse than UK? Why do they have a say in it without helping the problem in the slightest?

ghostpepper 7y ago
What about buying billions of dollars of weapons from Russia? Does that qualify as grounds for expulsion from NATO?
- ListeningPie 7y ago
  How are buying weapons from Russia grounds for expulsion from Nato?
  - jbob2000 7y ago
    NATO was formed as a deterrence against Russian aggression. To then buy weapons from them is a pretty big conflict of interest.
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  Depends a bit on whether those weapons have internet access. We used to pay people handsomely to get our hands on Russian weaponry to play with.
- sahinabi 7y ago
  What about arming and aiding a terrorist organization who is fighting with your NATO ally? Does this qualify? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6AEyhHMnT4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6AEyhHMnT4
remarkEon 7y ago
NATO's charter isn't "refugee caretaker of the world". It's a mutual defense pact. I'm not interested in playing word games around who is the most humanitarian country (Turkey would lose that one anyway) - I asked a specific, strategic question about what benefit Turkey adds to the rest of NATO alliance members.

throwaway5752 7y ago

Because it's the least worse outcome (Nash equilibrium sense). Geopolitics don't work on feelings, they work on game theory.

yalph 7y ago

Vietnam and Iraq US killed 3 million civilians. Cant say that about Turkey. Why the hell is US in NATO?

yalph 7y ago

Get off your frigging high horse. Who are you to judge Erdogan when you consistently produce war criminal presidents.

loceng 7y ago
You understand it is bad actors, along with industrial complexes, leading to regulatory capture and bad policy - corruption - regardless of the country's name? It logically makes sense that the US having the strongest military in the world, being the most successful, leading capitalism - will be able to do the most damage by bad actors manipulating towards war and violence.
- yalph 7y ago
  So shut the ff up about Erdogan. Its not the fault of Turkish citizens.
  - loceng 7y ago
    I didn't say anything about Erdogan - however, "two wrongs don't make a right." And to add - indeed it's not the fault of the Turkish citizens who are against the tyranny, and those are who we need to align with and help support. Likewise, the US needs support from the world to help counter the bad actors we have here. Or we can all just be angry at "everyone" and rage against innocent people - and watch the whole world burn.

unclesams-uncle 7y ago

If Turkey leaves NATO, they will further ally with Russia. Considering Turkey's strategic location, it's better to have Turkey in NATO instead of as an adversary, even if its leadership doesn't align with the values of other NATO members. Erdogan knows that he has a ton of leverage and chooses to maximize his advantage. There are a lot of moving pieces here. He's overcalculated a bit and his nationalist policy has hurt the Turkish economy. Likewise, many European countries rejecting Turkey's EU bids last decade on thinly-veiled Islamaphobic pretenses only strengthened his nationalist message at home. The west knows it, but they also know that they would rather have Turkey nominally on their side than not. It will probably take cooler heads and or a major economic downturn to shift that sentiment. Until then, Turkey maintains its seat in NATO.