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It helps to know a little bit about what's been going on in Hong Kong, before you all decide to line up and take your daily dump on China. It all started a few

It helps to know a little bit about what's been going on in Hong Kong, before you all decide to line up and take your daily dump on China. It all started a few months ago when someone committed a crime in Taiwan and fled to Hong Kong. To prevent HK from becoming a safe haven for criminals, the Chief Executive of HK proposed a new law to facilitate extradition of these crime suspects from HK to various jurisdictions in the region, including Taiwan and mainland China. The proposed law even explicitly stated that it's not applicably to crimes political in nature. But some HK people were nevertheless concerned that it might be abused by China to target political dissidents in HK. So they have taken to the streets to protest that law. As a result, the law was quickly suspended before it had a chance to pass, and a few weeks ago the HK Chief Executive officially announced the withdrawal of the law. However, despite the concession from the HK government, the protesters pressed on, demanding four more concessions from the government, chief among them universal suffrage, or the direct election of the HK Chief Executive, who up to this point have been nominated from a narrow pool of Beijing-approved candidates, then voted on by a committee. It's not entirely clear that China even had anything to do with the proposal of the law which started this ordeal. But the protesters have been shrewd to paint a picture, to great effect, of big bad China stomping on the poor helpless people of HK. What I cannot stress enough, is the rampant violence and destruction from these protesters, which has done this great city, and many innocent citizens, unimaginable harm. Feel free to support their peaceful protests, but please don't simply pile on and encourage these violence and destruction. If anything I said is untrue, please correct me. Use the truth to argue your side, don't be a coward and hide behind your downvote.

decoyworker 7y ago
How many people have died in these huge, violent and destructive protests that have been raging for months?
dmvinson 7y ago
Thank you for the context, but I find it hard to believe that the HK Chief Executive was not influenced by or seeking favor with China when making the law. Also, this seems to ignore the question of Taiwan's sovereign status and assume they are part of China. Speaking more factually, China has used unrelated charges to arrest and imprison political dissidents for years now. This is a known phenomenon, and likely the reason behind the protestor's concerns about extradition. The promise not to use the law for political crimes is worthless knowing that history.
- UIZealot 7y ago
  > but I find it hard to believe that the HK Chief Executive was not influenced by or seeking favor with China when making the law. > The promise not to use the law for political crimes is worthless knowing that history. That fear is certainly reasonable. But the HK Chief Executive has officially announced the withdrawal of the law about a month ago. How do you justify the continuing violence and destruction since then?
  - mattnewton 7y ago
    My understanding is the existing system didn’t offer them better options than taking to the streets, but the hope is that fair elections would choose representatives that wouldn’t allow something like this to happen again. Otherwise they all go home and a similar law is proposed again in a new form, and they would have to reorganize.
  - garretraziel 7y ago
    From Wikipedia: "Lam suspended the extradition bill on 15 June and declared the bill "dead" on 9 July, but fell short of a promise to withdraw it until 4 September. However, she refused to concede to any of the other four demands, namely an independent inquiry on police brutality, the release of arrested protesters, a complete retraction of the official characterisation of the protests as "riots", and her resignation along with the introduction of universal suffrage for election of the Legislative Council and the Chief Executive." How do you justify continuing violence and destruction by "law" enforcers? Seriously though, I think that protests against extradiction law transformed into protest against China's illegal claim over Hong Kong.
eatbitseveryday 7y ago
There have been accusations that agents of PRC mixed with the HK protestors with the goal of escalating violence and vandalism. I’d be careful definitively attributing HK natives with instigating riots.
magashna 7y ago
It's disingenuous to act like China is simply trying to do what is right and HK is reacting with violence. China is looking to expand their empire and using underhanded tactics like suppressing their message globally and allegedly sending in Triads to assault protesters.
automatoney 7y ago
I'm not going to argue whether or not anything you've said is untrue, but you're leaving out some pretty important details which puts the protesters in a worse light. First of all, one of the initial demands of the protest was to retract the characterization of one of the earlier protests as a riot. So even peaceful demonstrations have been cracked down on by the government. Even well-organized protests such as the one on July 1st (the anniversary of Hong Kong being handed over to China - there's usually protesting on this date) have met with strong resistance - early on the police were ordering people to disperse even though there was no violence at that time. Secondly, late in July there were increasing attacks on protesters in which police stood by as people were attacked with poles. It seems that in this case, it was the police that were allowing violence and destruction, not the protesters. Most importantly, the first bullet even fired in this whole situation was a police officer shooting an 18 year old high school student. And regardless how the protesters are behaving, the argument that the only valid form of protest is peaceful protest is also historically inaccurate. Peaceful protest is definitely better when possible, but in many cases throughout history it simply has not been feasible.
- UIZealot 7y ago
  That's the gist of it. Of course I left out a lot of things, and not all of them are in the protesters's favor. > early on the police were ordering people to disperse even though there was no violence at that time. But did the police use violence first? > late in July there were increasing attacks on protesters in which police stood by as people were attacked with poles. It seems that in this case, it was the police that were allowing violence and destruction, not the protesters. When you treat the police like your enemy, how do you expect them to rush to your help the moment you need it? And seeing that the protesters were more than capable of violence themselves, why would the police rush to help? > the first bullet even fired in this whole situation was a police officer shooting an 18 year old high school student. The officer was under attack and fired in self defense, you know that better than I do. > Peaceful protest is definitely better when possible, but in many cases throughout history it simply has not been feasible. In a place without law and order, it may not be feasible. In Hong Kong? It's definitely possible.
thewholeview 7y ago
Thanks for trying to educate the mass in a factual manner, and I'd like to apologize for others for voting you down. Unfortunately many of HN are fueled currently by a righteous sense of nationalism and words outside the context of the media cannot be easily consumed at the moment. It's absolutely similar in Chinese forums though as we are through an era that has the easiest path towards a propaganda for a collective herd mentality. However it is important to continue to present the facts as it's a gain overall for the entire community to not have the facts/opposing views to be censored.
- missosoup 7y ago
  I have a good-faith question for you. Your account is 6 days old. Your account's activity is 100% directed towards China-related threads and your comments take on a CCP angle. I'd like to know what brought you to HN and what you hope to accomplish here. Where do you live? Where did you study? What are your political leanings? I would love to open a line of dialogue.
  - thewholeview 7y ago
    Thanks for asking. I've answered this in another thread, I'll copy paste the reply over with minor edits: Yes, I can admit that I've created an alternate account. Because the current American political atmosphere is instilling fear for my ability to freely express the alternative that's other than the popular opinion. I'm selfish and wish to not cause damage to my credential on my main account, and leave that for non-political discussions. I only come to hope to bring certain other perspective in peace and hoping for scholarly discussions on perspectives that I've not personally considered. As for my life trajectory, I was born in China, studied in Canada, and now presently resides in America. I like to think that I lean towards the center, but other people may not believe so.
    - missosoup 7y ago
      Yeah, that's fine. Anonymity is important precisely because it allows one to discuss sensitive topics openly. But you are using anonymity to advocate for a regime where anonymity has been systemically removed and where this conversation could never take place on a public forum. That's a bit of dissonance no?
missosoup 7y ago
I recognised the author's username before even reading the body of the comment. HN is inundated with recently created or recently reactivated accounts posting CCP propaganda. These accounts don't necessarily belong to bots or shills, but they are nonetheless part of a state orchestrated social media influence campaign. Reddit has addressed this with mass purges and browser extensions that allow shared tagging of users to disclose their affiliations. What is HN going to do? A purely neutral platform is easy pickings for state propaganda. I'm not calling for any particular action, but highlighting the increasing need for a call to be made by HN moderators. This forum is exhibiting the same symptoms that Reddit did during the first wave of Russian media influence campaigns. This was initially met with dismissal and accusations of racism/etc if anyone called out the accounts in question. It took another 8 months for the Reddit team to admit what was going on and take action. The only defence currently available is downvotes and a higher snr ratio, but those only work as long as the influence effort on any particular topic is smaller than the userbase that tends to discuss said topic.
- UIZealot 7y ago
  I remember you from our earlier discussions as well. Even though we disagreed, I always thought you sounded intelligent and thoughtful. But somehow you felt the need to resort to naming calling and baseless speculations here. The facts are really not on your side, are they?
  - missosoup 7y ago
    To be really clear I am not accusing you or the other accounts of being shills or bots. Statistically, you were born in China and were sent to study overseas. The issue is that the aggregate activity of accounts like yours on overseas forums like reddit/HN is effectively a nationalistic propaganda campaign even though you probably don't realise it. The reverse would be if thousands of random Redditors who are enraged about the HK protests showed up on your regular WeChat groups and started repeating identical pro-west propaganda talking points everywhere. Except the reverse can't happen because all the main communication mediums in China are locked out to foreigners. That is the unfair disbalance. That is the state orchestrated influence campaign. The CCP doesn't need bots or shill armies. They have millions of nationalistic individuals overseas and use them to the same effect.

decoyworker 7y ago

How many people have died in these huge, violent and destructive protests that have been raging for months?

dmvinson 7y ago

Thank you for the context, but I find it hard to believe that the HK Chief Executive was not influenced by or seeking favor with China when making the law. Also, this seems to ignore the question of Taiwan's sovereign status and assume they are part of China. Speaking more factually, China has used unrelated charges to arrest and imprison political dissidents for years now. This is a known phenomenon, and likely the reason behind the protestor's concerns about extradition. The promise not to use the law for political crimes is worthless knowing that history.

UIZealot 7y ago
> but I find it hard to believe that the HK Chief Executive was not influenced by or seeking favor with China when making the law. > The promise not to use the law for political crimes is worthless knowing that history. That fear is certainly reasonable. But the HK Chief Executive has officially announced the withdrawal of the law about a month ago. How do you justify the continuing violence and destruction since then?
- mattnewton 7y ago
  My understanding is the existing system didn’t offer them better options than taking to the streets, but the hope is that fair elections would choose representatives that wouldn’t allow something like this to happen again. Otherwise they all go home and a similar law is proposed again in a new form, and they would have to reorganize.
- garretraziel 7y ago
  From Wikipedia: "Lam suspended the extradition bill on 15 June and declared the bill "dead" on 9 July, but fell short of a promise to withdraw it until 4 September. However, she refused to concede to any of the other four demands, namely an independent inquiry on police brutality, the release of arrested protesters, a complete retraction of the official characterisation of the protests as "riots", and her resignation along with the introduction of universal suffrage for election of the Legislative Council and the Chief Executive." How do you justify continuing violence and destruction by "law" enforcers? Seriously though, I think that protests against extradiction law transformed into protest against China's illegal claim over Hong Kong.

eatbitseveryday 7y ago

There have been accusations that agents of PRC mixed with the HK protestors with the goal of escalating violence and vandalism. I’d be careful definitively attributing HK natives with instigating riots.

magashna 7y ago

It's disingenuous to act like China is simply trying to do what is right and HK is reacting with violence. China is looking to expand their empire and using underhanded tactics like suppressing their message globally and allegedly sending in Triads to assault protesters.

automatoney 7y ago

I'm not going to argue whether or not anything you've said is untrue, but you're leaving out some pretty important details which puts the protesters in a worse light. First of all, one of the initial demands of the protest was to retract the characterization of one of the earlier protests as a riot. So even peaceful demonstrations have been cracked down on by the government. Even well-organized protests such as the one on July 1st (the anniversary of Hong Kong being handed over to China - there's usually protesting on this date) have met with strong resistance - early on the police were ordering people to disperse even though there was no violence at that time. Secondly, late in July there were increasing attacks on protesters in which police stood by as people were attacked with poles. It seems that in this case, it was the police that were allowing violence and destruction, not the protesters. Most importantly, the first bullet even fired in this whole situation was a police officer shooting an 18 year old high school student. And regardless how the protesters are behaving, the argument that the only valid form of protest is peaceful protest is also historically inaccurate. Peaceful protest is definitely better when possible, but in many cases throughout history it simply has not been feasible.

UIZealot 7y ago
That's the gist of it. Of course I left out a lot of things, and not all of them are in the protesters's favor. > early on the police were ordering people to disperse even though there was no violence at that time. But did the police use violence first? > late in July there were increasing attacks on protesters in which police stood by as people were attacked with poles. It seems that in this case, it was the police that were allowing violence and destruction, not the protesters. When you treat the police like your enemy, how do you expect them to rush to your help the moment you need it? And seeing that the protesters were more than capable of violence themselves, why would the police rush to help? > the first bullet even fired in this whole situation was a police officer shooting an 18 year old high school student. The officer was under attack and fired in self defense, you know that better than I do. > Peaceful protest is definitely better when possible, but in many cases throughout history it simply has not been feasible. In a place without law and order, it may not be feasible. In Hong Kong? It's definitely possible.

thewholeview 7y ago

Thanks for trying to educate the mass in a factual manner, and I'd like to apologize for others for voting you down. Unfortunately many of HN are fueled currently by a righteous sense of nationalism and words outside the context of the media cannot be easily consumed at the moment. It's absolutely similar in Chinese forums though as we are through an era that has the easiest path towards a propaganda for a collective herd mentality. However it is important to continue to present the facts as it's a gain overall for the entire community to not have the facts/opposing views to be censored.

missosoup 7y ago
I have a good-faith question for you. Your account is 6 days old. Your account's activity is 100% directed towards China-related threads and your comments take on a CCP angle. I'd like to know what brought you to HN and what you hope to accomplish here. Where do you live? Where did you study? What are your political leanings? I would love to open a line of dialogue.
- thewholeview 7y ago
  Thanks for asking. I've answered this in another thread, I'll copy paste the reply over with minor edits: Yes, I can admit that I've created an alternate account. Because the current American political atmosphere is instilling fear for my ability to freely express the alternative that's other than the popular opinion. I'm selfish and wish to not cause damage to my credential on my main account, and leave that for non-political discussions. I only come to hope to bring certain other perspective in peace and hoping for scholarly discussions on perspectives that I've not personally considered. As for my life trajectory, I was born in China, studied in Canada, and now presently resides in America. I like to think that I lean towards the center, but other people may not believe so.
  - missosoup 7y ago
    Yeah, that's fine. Anonymity is important precisely because it allows one to discuss sensitive topics openly. But you are using anonymity to advocate for a regime where anonymity has been systemically removed and where this conversation could never take place on a public forum. That's a bit of dissonance no?

missosoup 7y ago

I recognised the author's username before even reading the body of the comment. HN is inundated with recently created or recently reactivated accounts posting CCP propaganda. These accounts don't necessarily belong to bots or shills, but they are nonetheless part of a state orchestrated social media influence campaign. Reddit has addressed this with mass purges and browser extensions that allow shared tagging of users to disclose their affiliations. What is HN going to do? A purely neutral platform is easy pickings for state propaganda. I'm not calling for any particular action, but highlighting the increasing need for a call to be made by HN moderators. This forum is exhibiting the same symptoms that Reddit did during the first wave of Russian media influence campaigns. This was initially met with dismissal and accusations of racism/etc if anyone called out the accounts in question. It took another 8 months for the Reddit team to admit what was going on and take action. The only defence currently available is downvotes and a higher snr ratio, but those only work as long as the influence effort on any particular topic is smaller than the userbase that tends to discuss said topic.

UIZealot 7y ago
I remember you from our earlier discussions as well. Even though we disagreed, I always thought you sounded intelligent and thoughtful. But somehow you felt the need to resort to naming calling and baseless speculations here. The facts are really not on your side, are they?
- missosoup 7y ago
  To be really clear I am not accusing you or the other accounts of being shills or bots. Statistically, you were born in China and were sent to study overseas. The issue is that the aggregate activity of accounts like yours on overseas forums like reddit/HN is effectively a nationalistic propaganda campaign even though you probably don't realise it. The reverse would be if thousands of random Redditors who are enraged about the HK protests showed up on your regular WeChat groups and started repeating identical pro-west propaganda talking points everywhere. Except the reverse can't happen because all the main communication mediums in China are locked out to foreigners. That is the unfair disbalance. That is the state orchestrated influence campaign. The CCP doesn't need bots or shill armies. They have millions of nationalistic individuals overseas and use them to the same effect.