6 ms·

Your comment is a tad snarky and strays off topic within the snark... But for real, why not recognize sex work as a legitimate profession?

rayiner 7y ago
As the recent Epstein revelations are proving, there is so much coercion and trafficking in sex work that deeming it a legitimate industry is not plausible.
- MisterTea 7y ago
  This is right about the time where someone comes along and talks about how decriminalization and regulation will fix it.
- dadarepublic 7y ago
  Isn't that an argument for recognizing sex work as a legitimate profession? Exploitation can happen in any number of professions up and down the value chain. It's one reason why we have corporate & labor law and why we don't have young children working in mines any longer.
  - rayiner 7y ago
    No? Your child labor example shows exactly why. At some point, the inherent tendency for a certain type of work to be exploitive means that the correct solution is to ban it entirely. We didn’t regulate child factory labor, we banned it. (Of course, we prosecute factory owners who use child labor, and not the children, but we could do that with sex work too.) https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J189v02n03_03 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J189v02n03_03 > We interviewed 854 people currently or recently in prostitution in 9 countries (Canada, Colombia, Germany, Mexico, South Africa, Thailand, Turkey, United States, and Zambia), inquiring about current and lifetime history of sexual and physical violence. We found that prostitution was multitraumatic: 71% were physically assaulted in prostitution; 63% were raped; 89% of these respondents wanted to escape prostitution, but did not have other options for survival. A total of 75% had been homeless at some point in their lives; 68% met criteria for PTSD. Severity of PTSD symptoms was strongly associated with the number of different types of lifetime sexual and physical violence. Decriminalization doesn’t fix these problems. https://orgs.law.harvard.edu/lids/2014/06/12/does-legalized-prostitution-increase-human-trafficking/ https://orgs.law.harvard.edu/lids/2014/06/12/does-legalized-... > Countries with legalized prostitution are associated with higher human trafficking inflows than countries where prostitution is prohibited. The scale effect of legalizing prostitution, i.e. expansion of the market, outweighs the substitution effect, where legal sex workers are favored over illegal workers. On average, countries with legalized prostitution report a greater incidence of human trafficking inflows. That’s why I bring up Epstein. Consider Stallman’s defense of Minsky: “she probably presented as willing.” What does the regulatory regime look like? Does requiring a license guarantee that women are willing, and not merely presenting as willing? Do inspectors come around and check that pimps aren’t physically abusing women or plying them with drugs? Legal prostitution gives cover to illegal prostitution. And it creates demand that can be satisfied by either legal or illegal prostitution, but where customers have no way to discern the difference.
    - zozbot234 7y ago
      It's not that some work has some "inherent tendency" to be exploitive. It's just that some lines of work are extremely vulnerable to exploitive forms masquerading as non-exploitive, to the point where the whole "market" unravels and only the exploitive form dominates. Child labor also falls into this, basically. But prostitution is even more obvious. And no, people haven't really shown how to fix the issue. Maybe it could be done via strict regulation combined with a high price floor, to purposefully turn it into a manageable, "niche" industry where qualitative factors are prized and discourage opportunistic entry. But while that might be okay even to many self-identified 'sex workers', let's not pretend that plenty of people wouldn't be disappointed by such an approach.
    - ernst_klim 7y ago
      >A 2012 study published in World Development, “Does Legalized Prostitution Increase Human Trafficking?” Ah yeah, that study which considers Ukrainian girls voluntarily coming to Germany for a job in sex industry as "trafficked". These "studies" are unsound and plainly wrong. The very definition of trafficking they use is so ambiguous and varies from "a sex slave being transported in a container" to "a girl who legally(sic) emigrates to a rich country to legally(sic) work in sex industry". The latter is not a bad thing. > We found that prostitution was multitraumatic: 71% were physically assaulted in prostitution; 63% were raped Yeah, before it was legalized. I see no evidence that after legalization in Germany 63% of workers were raped. This is such a blatant manipulation. A very good overall review of such manipulations could be find here [2] > What does the regulatory regime look like? Does requiring a license guarantee that women are willing, and not merely presenting as willing? Lets start with a fact that a girl who want to work in a sex industry don't need to deal with delinquents, if prostitution is legalized. That reduces abuse terrifically. Lets continue with the fact that legal market draws demand from the black market, making trafficking and related risks less attractive from a financial point of view. The vast majority of prostitutes came voluntarily to biz, the percent of slaves is tiny, so removing the need to deal with delinquents and giving the opportunity to have a legal job would reduce abuse significantly. [1] https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/jennyheineman/sex-trafficking-myths-sesta-fosta https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/jennyheineman/sex-traff... [2] https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=7413&context=jclc https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewconten...
lr4444lr 7y ago
Because its financial viability as a mode of employment is largely rooted in social norms and social disapproval sufficiently blocking flood of competition. Outside of a few high priced call girls in an elite network, prostitution pays because we (collectively) look askance at it.
- dadarepublic 7y ago
  You just said sex work pays because 'we' look cynically/suspiciously at it. Really? Sex work pays because people want a form of pleasure and are willing to pay for it. There is demand and some people are willing to provide supply. So I'll ask again, since you didn't really answer the question, why not recognize it as a legitimate profession?
  - kcolford 7y ago
    But if it was normalized then with an increase of supply there would be downward pressure on prices making it no longer an effective way to make a living. Although normalizing it is very different from decriminalizing and regulating.
  - lr4444lr 7y ago
    The other respondent summarized me correctly, but I'll also add, why do most aspiring "actors" or "models" have to moonlight as waiters if it's a simple matter of people paying for something pleasurable that people want? Because those jobs carry social prestige, and they're flooded with competition. Disgust, danger, and/or fear among the eligible applicant pool keeps enough competition out of prostitution to make it work.
    - dadarepublic 7y ago
      Your comment "prostitution pays because we (collectively) look askance at it" Is directly equivalent to "sex work pays because 'we' look cynically/suspiciously at it" I summarized you correctly - you may not like what you said but my summarization was correct word for word. Comparing aspiring actors and models to sex work? This is a false equivalence. And your last sentence "disgust, danger, and/or fear" not only makes broad assumptions, but also reinforces what I commented earlier about corporate & labor law. And you still haven't really answered the question.

rayiner 7y ago

As the recent Epstein revelations are proving, there is so much coercion and trafficking in sex work that deeming it a legitimate industry is not plausible.

MisterTea 7y ago
This is right about the time where someone comes along and talks about how decriminalization and regulation will fix it.
dadarepublic 7y ago
Isn't that an argument for recognizing sex work as a legitimate profession? Exploitation can happen in any number of professions up and down the value chain. It's one reason why we have corporate & labor law and why we don't have young children working in mines any longer.
- rayiner 7y ago
  No? Your child labor example shows exactly why. At some point, the inherent tendency for a certain type of work to be exploitive means that the correct solution is to ban it entirely. We didn’t regulate child factory labor, we banned it. (Of course, we prosecute factory owners who use child labor, and not the children, but we could do that with sex work too.) https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J189v02n03_03 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J189v02n03_03 > We interviewed 854 people currently or recently in prostitution in 9 countries (Canada, Colombia, Germany, Mexico, South Africa, Thailand, Turkey, United States, and Zambia), inquiring about current and lifetime history of sexual and physical violence. We found that prostitution was multitraumatic: 71% were physically assaulted in prostitution; 63% were raped; 89% of these respondents wanted to escape prostitution, but did not have other options for survival. A total of 75% had been homeless at some point in their lives; 68% met criteria for PTSD. Severity of PTSD symptoms was strongly associated with the number of different types of lifetime sexual and physical violence. Decriminalization doesn’t fix these problems. https://orgs.law.harvard.edu/lids/2014/06/12/does-legalized-prostitution-increase-human-trafficking/ https://orgs.law.harvard.edu/lids/2014/06/12/does-legalized-... > Countries with legalized prostitution are associated with higher human trafficking inflows than countries where prostitution is prohibited. The scale effect of legalizing prostitution, i.e. expansion of the market, outweighs the substitution effect, where legal sex workers are favored over illegal workers. On average, countries with legalized prostitution report a greater incidence of human trafficking inflows. That’s why I bring up Epstein. Consider Stallman’s defense of Minsky: “she probably presented as willing.” What does the regulatory regime look like? Does requiring a license guarantee that women are willing, and not merely presenting as willing? Do inspectors come around and check that pimps aren’t physically abusing women or plying them with drugs? Legal prostitution gives cover to illegal prostitution. And it creates demand that can be satisfied by either legal or illegal prostitution, but where customers have no way to discern the difference.
  - zozbot234 7y ago
    It's not that some work has some "inherent tendency" to be exploitive. It's just that some lines of work are extremely vulnerable to exploitive forms masquerading as non-exploitive, to the point where the whole "market" unravels and only the exploitive form dominates. Child labor also falls into this, basically. But prostitution is even more obvious. And no, people haven't really shown how to fix the issue. Maybe it could be done via strict regulation combined with a high price floor, to purposefully turn it into a manageable, "niche" industry where qualitative factors are prized and discourage opportunistic entry. But while that might be okay even to many self-identified 'sex workers', let's not pretend that plenty of people wouldn't be disappointed by such an approach.
  - ernst_klim 7y ago
    >A 2012 study published in World Development, “Does Legalized Prostitution Increase Human Trafficking?” Ah yeah, that study which considers Ukrainian girls voluntarily coming to Germany for a job in sex industry as "trafficked". These "studies" are unsound and plainly wrong. The very definition of trafficking they use is so ambiguous and varies from "a sex slave being transported in a container" to "a girl who legally(sic) emigrates to a rich country to legally(sic) work in sex industry". The latter is not a bad thing. > We found that prostitution was multitraumatic: 71% were physically assaulted in prostitution; 63% were raped Yeah, before it was legalized. I see no evidence that after legalization in Germany 63% of workers were raped. This is such a blatant manipulation. A very good overall review of such manipulations could be find here [2] > What does the regulatory regime look like? Does requiring a license guarantee that women are willing, and not merely presenting as willing? Lets start with a fact that a girl who want to work in a sex industry don't need to deal with delinquents, if prostitution is legalized. That reduces abuse terrifically. Lets continue with the fact that legal market draws demand from the black market, making trafficking and related risks less attractive from a financial point of view. The vast majority of prostitutes came voluntarily to biz, the percent of slaves is tiny, so removing the need to deal with delinquents and giving the opportunity to have a legal job would reduce abuse significantly. [1] https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/jennyheineman/sex-trafficking-myths-sesta-fosta https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/jennyheineman/sex-traff... [2] https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=7413&context=jclc https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewconten...

lr4444lr 7y ago

Because its financial viability as a mode of employment is largely rooted in social norms and social disapproval sufficiently blocking flood of competition. Outside of a few high priced call girls in an elite network, prostitution pays because we (collectively) look askance at it.

dadarepublic 7y ago
You just said sex work pays because 'we' look cynically/suspiciously at it. Really? Sex work pays because people want a form of pleasure and are willing to pay for it. There is demand and some people are willing to provide supply. So I'll ask again, since you didn't really answer the question, why not recognize it as a legitimate profession?
- kcolford 7y ago
  But if it was normalized then with an increase of supply there would be downward pressure on prices making it no longer an effective way to make a living. Although normalizing it is very different from decriminalizing and regulating.
- lr4444lr 7y ago
  The other respondent summarized me correctly, but I'll also add, why do most aspiring "actors" or "models" have to moonlight as waiters if it's a simple matter of people paying for something pleasurable that people want? Because those jobs carry social prestige, and they're flooded with competition. Disgust, danger, and/or fear among the eligible applicant pool keeps enough competition out of prostitution to make it work.
  - dadarepublic 7y ago
    Your comment "prostitution pays because we (collectively) look askance at it" Is directly equivalent to "sex work pays because 'we' look cynically/suspiciously at it" I summarized you correctly - you may not like what you said but my summarization was correct word for word. Comparing aspiring actors and models to sex work? This is a false equivalence. And your last sentence "disgust, danger, and/or fear" not only makes broad assumptions, but also reinforces what I commented earlier about corporate & labor law. And you still haven't really answered the question.