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The privacy stance is just marketing. They have handed over iCloud keys and data to the state in China already. If they cared about privacy over market dominanc

by m0xte 7y ago

The privacy stance is just marketing. They have handed over iCloud keys and data to the state in China already. If they cared about privacy over market dominance that wouldn’t have happened. Unfortunately as an iOS user tied to the ecosystem this puts me in a difficult situation ethically speaking. I am sponsoring this. Perhaps I should stop buying into corporate marketing ideologies. Got burned by that before (Microsoft))

neighbour 7y ago
I have seen this posted before. Can you link me to the proof? Genuinely curious.
- m0xte 7y ago
  https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-china-apple-icloud-insight/apple-moves-to-store-icloud-keys-in-china-raising-human-rights-fears-idUKKCN1G8060 https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-china-apple-icloud-insight... Fundamentally they moved their kit into a state owned data centre.
- oarsinsync 7y ago
  Apple's own statements on the matter are vague and you'll need to dig through their ToS, but here it is anyway: https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT208351 https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT208351
- bduerst 7y ago
  They did it in two steps. Apple forced users to opt into storing iCloud data in Chinese data centers, and then the Chinese Government nationalized the data centers six month later.
simonh 7y ago
It's really not a matter of ideology, it's a matter of law. They either comply with Chinese law, or they risk their employees being arrested for breaking the law, or they stop doing business in China. I think they would argue that, given that all phones are subject to state surveillance, iPhone users in China are no worse off than if they were using another phone. Also since iPhones are generally a lot more secure than other phones against non-state attacks, they are actually better off than they would otherwise be. That's a tough call. I have family in China, since my wife is Chinese, and they have iPhones. Would they be better off if Apple pulled out of Chine or worse off? Well, they chose iPhones and they are more secure so isn't it up to them? They wouldn't thank me if I took their iPhones away. On the other hand, if Apple pulled out of China on privacy grounds, it would be massive news. It would not be something the Chinese government could ignore, and might conceivably raise awareness of pervasive state surveillance in China. But people in China are already very much aware of pervasive state surveillance. They even have a social credit system based on watching everything they do. Chinese state control of public narratives is so total, I actually doubt it would make any difference.
- Krasnol 7y ago
  Wasn't it "the law" also when they came up with the privacy claim around that terrorist case where the FBI needed access to a device? I mean, in the end it's the same thing as the classic "I didn't do anything wrong, I've been following orders".
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    The FBI specifically asked Apple to backdoor that device, rather than handing over encryption keys that they already kept.
    - Krasnol 7y ago
      Not much of a difference in the case of China, the keys to iCloud and just "following the law".
    - bduerst 7y ago
      Handing over encryption keys to access user data at rest is a backdoor.
  - simonh 7y ago
    I'm finding it difficult to parse what you mean here. In that case Apple successfully fought the FBI demand, within the law. Had the law required them to render assistance I'm sure they would have done so, otherwise they would have been requiring their employees to break the law. Under what circumstances do you think it is acceptable for a company to require it's employees to incriminate themselves?
    - Krasnol 7y ago
      Not really, "appealed the ruling, but then dropped the case on April 22 after it was given the correct passcode". > Under what circumstances do you think it is acceptable for a company to require it's employees to incriminate themselves? Human rights violations should be more than enough.
- 7y ago
taneq 7y ago
> They have handed over iCloud keys and data to the state in China already. Have they not regularly done so in the U.S. too? I thought the recent-ish drama with them refusing to unlock phones was that they were being asked to break into their own secure enclave system, taking an unreasonable amount of effort and permanently making their own product less secure? They're a big company but they're still a company. They have to abide by the laws of whatever countries they're operating in.
travisp 7y ago
Apple has not handed over the iCloud keys and has testified in the US under penalty of perjury that they have not done this and not made an exception for China. Repeating this is dangerous because it’ll cause people to take different (probably less safe and private) actions based on incorrect information.
- chance_state 7y ago
  Yes, they have. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208351 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208351 Can you link to a source showing that Apple didn't turn over control of iCloud in China to the CCP?
  - travisp 7y ago
    That link does not show that they've given control over encryption to the CCP. Apple is on record stating that they have not done this. "Encryption for us is the same in every country in the world...We worked with a Chinese company to provide iCloud, but the keys [...] are ours...I wouldn't get caught up in 'where's the location of it,' I mean we have servers located in many different countries in the world. They're not easier to get data from being in one country versus the next...The key question is how does the encryption process work, and who owns the keys — if anyone. In most cases for us, you and the receiver [of a message] own the keys." - Tim Cook (https://www.businessinsider.com/tim-cook-apple-encrypts-data-in-china-2018-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/tim-cook-apple-encrypts-data...)
    - chance_state 7y ago
      Very interesting; thanks for sharing.
- skrowl 7y ago
  https://money.cnn.com/2018/01/10/technology/apple-china-icloud/index.html https://money.cnn.com/2018/01/10/technology/apple-china-iclo... Not only has Apple given the iCloud keys to the kingdom to China, iCloud is actually run by the state in China

by m0xte 7y ago

neighbour 7y ago

I have seen this posted before. Can you link me to the proof? Genuinely curious.

m0xte 7y ago
https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-china-apple-icloud-insight/apple-moves-to-store-icloud-keys-in-china-raising-human-rights-fears-idUKKCN1G8060 https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-china-apple-icloud-insight... Fundamentally they moved their kit into a state owned data centre.
oarsinsync 7y ago
Apple's own statements on the matter are vague and you'll need to dig through their ToS, but here it is anyway: https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT208351 https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT208351
bduerst 7y ago
They did it in two steps. Apple forced users to opt into storing iCloud data in Chinese data centers, and then the Chinese Government nationalized the data centers six month later.

simonh 7y ago

It's really not a matter of ideology, it's a matter of law. They either comply with Chinese law, or they risk their employees being arrested for breaking the law, or they stop doing business in China. I think they would argue that, given that all phones are subject to state surveillance, iPhone users in China are no worse off than if they were using another phone. Also since iPhones are generally a lot more secure than other phones against non-state attacks, they are actually better off than they would otherwise be. That's a tough call. I have family in China, since my wife is Chinese, and they have iPhones. Would they be better off if Apple pulled out of Chine or worse off? Well, they chose iPhones and they are more secure so isn't it up to them? They wouldn't thank me if I took their iPhones away. On the other hand, if Apple pulled out of China on privacy grounds, it would be massive news. It would not be something the Chinese government could ignore, and might conceivably raise awareness of pervasive state surveillance in China. But people in China are already very much aware of pervasive state surveillance. They even have a social credit system based on watching everything they do. Chinese state control of public narratives is so total, I actually doubt it would make any difference.

Krasnol 7y ago
Wasn't it "the law" also when they came up with the privacy claim around that terrorist case where the FBI needed access to a device? I mean, in the end it's the same thing as the classic "I didn't do anything wrong, I've been following orders".
- saagarjha 7y ago
  The FBI specifically asked Apple to backdoor that device, rather than handing over encryption keys that they already kept.
  - Krasnol 7y ago
    Not much of a difference in the case of China, the keys to iCloud and just "following the law".
  - bduerst 7y ago
    Handing over encryption keys to access user data at rest is a backdoor.
- simonh 7y ago
  I'm finding it difficult to parse what you mean here. In that case Apple successfully fought the FBI demand, within the law. Had the law required them to render assistance I'm sure they would have done so, otherwise they would have been requiring their employees to break the law. Under what circumstances do you think it is acceptable for a company to require it's employees to incriminate themselves?
  - Krasnol 7y ago
    Not really, "appealed the ruling, but then dropped the case on April 22 after it was given the correct passcode". > Under what circumstances do you think it is acceptable for a company to require it's employees to incriminate themselves? Human rights violations should be more than enough.
7y ago

taneq 7y ago

> They have handed over iCloud keys and data to the state in China already. Have they not regularly done so in the U.S. too? I thought the recent-ish drama with them refusing to unlock phones was that they were being asked to break into their own secure enclave system, taking an unreasonable amount of effort and permanently making their own product less secure? They're a big company but they're still a company. They have to abide by the laws of whatever countries they're operating in.

travisp 7y ago

Apple has not handed over the iCloud keys and has testified in the US under penalty of perjury that they have not done this and not made an exception for China. Repeating this is dangerous because it’ll cause people to take different (probably less safe and private) actions based on incorrect information.

chance_state 7y ago
Yes, they have. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208351 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208351 Can you link to a source showing that Apple didn't turn over control of iCloud in China to the CCP?
- travisp 7y ago
  That link does not show that they've given control over encryption to the CCP. Apple is on record stating that they have not done this. "Encryption for us is the same in every country in the world...We worked with a Chinese company to provide iCloud, but the keys [...] are ours...I wouldn't get caught up in 'where's the location of it,' I mean we have servers located in many different countries in the world. They're not easier to get data from being in one country versus the next...The key question is how does the encryption process work, and who owns the keys — if anyone. In most cases for us, you and the receiver [of a message] own the keys." - Tim Cook (https://www.businessinsider.com/tim-cook-apple-encrypts-data-in-china-2018-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/tim-cook-apple-encrypts-data...)
  - chance_state 7y ago
    Very interesting; thanks for sharing.
skrowl 7y ago
https://money.cnn.com/2018/01/10/technology/apple-china-icloud/index.html https://money.cnn.com/2018/01/10/technology/apple-china-iclo... Not only has Apple given the iCloud keys to the kingdom to China, iCloud is actually run by the state in China