6 ms·
It's absurd
by david-s 7y ago
It's absurd
- kmlx 7y agoland of the so-called free.
- vinay427 7y agoIt's still, at least on paper, freer than many/most other Western countries in most ways AFAIK. I agree that this is a very absurd counterexample, however.
- jamienicol 7y ago[citation needed]
- jw1224 7y agoCan you give a few examples of ways in which a US citizen is more free than I, a UK citizen, am?
- obituary_latte 7y agoI don’t think they said “more free than UK citizens”. Although, to be fair, US doesn’t have quite as intrusive CCTV. And I thought gun laws were pretty restrictive in UK? But “most ways” is probably a reach, and there are certainly things UK does do much better. Edit: would appreciate feedback if my comment is not constructive or could be improved in some way.
- the_mitsuhiko 7y agoFor me as a European "gun laws were pretty restrictive in UK" for me means freedom more than access to guns does. I quite value the freedom of not having to worry about guns.
- vinay427 7y agoThat's a very convoluted definition of freedom. I think there are many other things to call that ("sensible" or "sane" come to mind...) but it's objectively less free, legally/on paper as I stated.
- the_mitsuhiko 7y agoBy that definition any law stands in the way of freedom. You're not allowed to kill people in the US, so would it be a more free country if that law was not in place? From my cultural upbringing having regulation in place to steer society does not stand at odds with freedom. And that's also by my cultural background not "convoluted".
- kmlx 7y agowhen the fear of guns stifles your movement, then yes, a lack of guns means more freedom. i'm writing this after having lived in the murder capital of the US and now moved to the UK. personal safety (and thus freedom) in Europe is at another level compared to the US. which makes sense. the US is at Zambia and Sudan levels of murders per capita. truly shameful.
- refurb 7y agoIf you look at all violent crimes in the US versus UK, they aren’t all that different.
- aquaticsunset 7y agoThis is where it gets a little “grey area.” If my freedom to have a gun impacts many, many other freedoms of the people around me, is society more free or less? If my freedom to text and drive impacts the right to life and freedom of those around me, it’s imperative to restrict that one freedom so the freedom of the society remains.
- refurb 7y ago“As a person from China, the fact the gov’t is putting Muslims in camps means more freedom for me from terrorism.” That’s not freedom.
- alexis_fr 7y agoYou can’t leave Europe, despite your voters voting twice for it, making the Brexit party the #1, and yet your establishment understood “Leave” as “Stay” and refuses to hold a general election because they know they are illegitimate and hold on to their power?
- the_mitsuhiko 7y agoFirst of all is the EU not Europe, secondly the UK can leave it. They just are not capable of politically surviving the consequences of leaving it. Countries in the EU can leave the EU a right that states in the US currently do not have about leaving the USA if they so desired.
- palunon 7y agoWell, the leave process is currently underway since a little over three years, and is probably reaching its conclusion in a few days. On the US side, remember what happened when some states left the Union ?
- ekianjo 7y agoFreedom of expression has a much stronger protection status in the US than in the UK. That is one example.
- diffeomorphism 7y agoIf that is just one example, what is another one?
- ekianjo 7y agoAmericans can vote directly for their legislators while in the UK the House of Lords is largely appointed. Again, just another example.
- jashmatthews 7y agoProtections for freedom of expression as an employee are much higher in the UK. Freedom only applies in the USA if you can afford to exercise it and not get let go via at will employment
- FabHK 7y ago* In the USA, you are free to deny the holocaust. In Germany and the UK, you are not. * In the USA, if you're a health insurer, you are free to reject customers you don't like. In Europe, you're not. (Those rejected customers, in turn, are free to cover their own health expenses or die - their free choice). * In the USA, you're free to buy guns. In Europe, you're not. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=no+way+to+prevent+this+site%3Atheonion.com https://duckduckgo.com/?q=no+way+to+prevent+this+site%3Atheo... * In the US, you're free to drink a beer at the age of 20. In Europe, you're not. Ah, no, just kidding, it's the other way around. * In California, you can have a beer after 2 am. Ah, who am I kidding, of course you can't.
- mnw21cam 7y agoIn the UK, you are free to cross the road wherever you want (except the motorway). In the USA, in many states, you can't. Which still boggles my mind.
- kmlx 7y agonice find. i simply love this small, but very deep, quality of life feature of living in the UK.
- neves 7y agoVery good :-) In US you are free of people drinking a cold beer in sunny days in parks or in the beaches
- refurb 7y agoThat’s an easy one. I can say pretty much anything and not have the gov’t come after me for it. Say something distasteful about a minority group in the UK and you’ll be punished for it.
- vel0city 7y agoI can buy a kitchen knife without ending up on a government registry. I can own a radio or television capable of receiving broadcasts without having to pay a license and register it with the government.
- ajscanlan 7y agoWait, what country puts you on a government registry for buying a kitchen knife?
- neuronic 7y agoThe problem isn't the now, the status quo. It's the trajectory where things are headed.
- lotsofpulp 7y agoI find that people with lower incomes are free-er in other Western countries. They can go about their lives without worrying about healthcare, parents can bond and breastfeed for a year without stressing about work, families can go on vacations for multiple weeks, people aren’t as afraid of being abused or killed by police, etc.
- vinay427 7y agoNot the freedom I mean. I would say that people with lower incomes have better lives in other Western countries, but that's not the freedom from the government (at least on paper but probably in practice as well) that I meant.
- chacha2 7y agoIt's funny how when discussing freedom with an American they'll always insist the only measure that's really important is the one they excel in.
- dsfyu404ed 7y agoIt's funny how when discussing freedom with a non-American they'll always insist the only measure that's really important is the one America does not excel in. See how much nothing this adds to the discussion? You may as well say "your definition of freedom is wrong and mine is right".
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- vinay427 7y agoPlease don't be so presumptuous. First of all, I live in Europe. Second, I literally said that I think (at least) people with lower incomes have better lives in other Western countries. I really do mean freedom in the literal legal sense, and I don't think this is an important metric.
- 7y ago
- BigJ1211 7y agoThat would really depend on how you define freedom, if you look at it theoratically like "free to do whatever you want". Then maybe, if you look at it from the perspective of "an individual can garner freedoms through work" they are far more likely to do that in most other western countries. You are far more likely to not have to worry about things like healthcare in european countries than you are in the US for example. You are far less likely to have to work multiple jobs to sustain your life. 'Class'mobility is far is better in most other western countries as well. So if your definition is "free to do whatever", this also means other people and corporations are free to screw you over. And you would be right that in that regard the USA is freer than other western countries, but it infringes upon personal freedom, and in my opinion, that is the kind of freedom the USA gneerally says they're all about.
- ekianjo 7y agoClass mobility better in other countries? Please provide a source for this claim.
- FabHK 7y agoIt's well established, just google it. For example: > Compared with many European countries, for example, few Americans end up with an income or educational level that is substantially different than their parents. > Now, new research suggests that social mobility in America may be even more limited than researchers have realized. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/10/06/striking-new-research-on-inequality-whatever-you-thought-its-worse/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/10/06/strik... > US social mobility gap continues to widen https://www.ft.com/content/7de9165e-c3d2-11e6-9bca-2b93a6856354 https://www.ft.com/content/7de9165e-c3d2-11e6-9bca-2b93a6856... (Paywall!) EDIT to add: > You're twice as likely to live the American Dream in Canada https://www.businessinsider.com/the-american-dream-of-social-mobility-2017-3?r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/the-american-dream-of-social...
- bildung 7y agoVertical social mobility is pretty bad in the US. This is for 2012: https://www.epi.org/publication/usa-lags-peer-countries-mobility/ https://www.epi.org/publication/usa-lags-peer-countries-mobi... This OECD chart shows how your financial outcome is practically inherited in the US and Germany: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/08/moving-up-the-income-ladder-takes-generations-how-many-depends-on-where-you-live/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/08/moving-up-the-income-... This isn't very surprising. For decades, the strongest predictor for a country having high social mobility is a strong welfare program including child care and health care, financed by progressive taxation of income and wealth. In the US, the rags to riches story has been a myth for at least 50 years.
- kmlx 7y ago> It's still, at least on paper... depends on the paper.
- mumblemumble 7y agoTo make that comparison, you first have to define "freedom" in concrete terms. I've long had the impression that people tend to define it in a way that values things they get in their home country, and devalues the things they don't. For example, an American is going to define "freedom of speech" in a way that ensures the government itself has almost no ability to limit things like political lobbying, because political lobbying, being a way to advance an opinion, is sacrosanct. A Canadian is more likely to want to define it in a way that allows for limiting the ability of people with lots and lots of money to drown out the voices of people of more modest financial means.
- tripzilch 7y ago2% of the US adult population is locked up. That's at most a land of the 98% free.
- refurb 7y agoThis comment is a great example of the black and white view so common on HN. If it’s not 100% white, then it must be black. No other alternatives.