8 ms·

Apart from the US, where else has middle schools? Here in Scotland there is (Optionally) nursery, primary school (5-12) and then secondary school (12-16/18), no

Apart from the US, where else has middle schools? Here in Scotland there is (Optionally) nursery, primary school (5-12) and then secondary school (12-16/18), no middle.

OJFord 7y ago
Some areas of the UK have them. (State schools in those areas anyway.) I believe as a deliberately modelled-on-America experiment some time ago that stuck in those locales but didn't expand.
bayesian_horse 7y ago
In Germany it's worse. We don't have a distinct middle school as such, but we have three parallel tiers after four years of elementary school. One is only until grade 9, one until grade 10, the third is up to 13 years. I'm leaving out a lot of details here, but basically students have to choose one track after elementary school. And upgrading is hard, especially because the lower tracks are "optimized for slower learners". Side-Note: As you might have guessed, the track selection has become more and more based on ethnicity. Studies have shown that such a tracked system is worse in every imaginable way. But it is extremely attractive to conservative academics.
- ido 7y ago
  A minor addendum: in Berlin & Brandenburg it's 6/6 years rather than 4/8.
- GLjEI4YbnGD27LB 7y ago
  I really liked the tracked system in the Netherlands. I feel like it really let the higher tier learn at a faster rate. Do you have links to the studies?
- cf141q5325 7y ago
  After a long discussion with little alternatives, my little cousin went to a Realschule mit Förderstufe. The problem with the school has less to do with ethnicity as i can see it but the fact that large parts of her class dont speak German good enough to be educated in it. And that they are not grouped up by language to help them catch up in their first language. Pair that with the "slower learner" approach and all of those kids are simply left behind. I dont think its an issue of racism but simply abandoning anyone who, for what ever reason, cant hold the pace. Simply no parent wants their kid to be in such a class with two multilingual teachers to at least partially cover multiple languages to try to communicate with the kids in their class. They have to deal with the consequences of not thought trough political maneuvers. And the kids who suffer from that are generally those that already live in precarious situations. Painting it as a problem of racism, misses the point entirely from what i have seen and I think framing it this way is deeply counterproductive when it comes to these fundamental issues of our education system.
  - pluma 7y ago
    It's not so much intentionally racist as it is classist. When I was ready for secondary education, it was clear to me that Gymnasium or ("at least") Gesamtschule was where you went if you were later going to study in a university, Realschule was for trades and Hauptschule was for "stupid" (or "troubled") kids. Needless to say, it was clear to me that I had to go to Gymnasium and then university because both of my parents had attended university. Of course those were unfair generalisations but when I was in university I met many people who retained exactly the same perception of those differences.
    - bayesian_horse 7y ago
      You are kidding yourself if you think that system isn't also driven by racism. A few decades ago it was virtually impossible for Turkish children to attend Gymnasium, regardless of the grades. It is hard to quantify, but the attitudes of teachers, in elementary school and beyond, does shape this process. If they don't believe those children can catch up, they won't...
      - pluma 7y ago
        The point is that the division pre-dates the racist impact it has now. Racism and classism go hand in hand in this case the same way they do in many others. I don't think the multi-tiered system would be salvageable even if there was no racism involved. Whether you doom children to economic failure based on their ethnicity (or lack of fluency in German, which is often abused as a shorthand for "low intelligence") or because of their social status (manifesting in various ways that ultimately lead to "poor performance") doesn't make this system any fairer.
    - cf141q5325 7y ago
      I think it only got worse. What you describe was also point of view when i had to decide between Realschule and Gymnasium. Its not so easy to justify sending your kid to a Realschule anymore. Most people are aware that its likely a dead end for their kid. On the other hand, Gymnasium got also a lot more stressful for kids with the change from G9 to G8 (reduction from 13 years school in total to 12). Either way, i can just feel extremely lucky that i didnt have to go through that. I doubt it would have turned as good as it did for me today.
- adrianN 7y ago
  Studies actually have not shown that segregation is bad in every imaginable way. It really depends on what you want to optimize for. Segregation is excellent for letting intelligent kids reach their full potential. It's terribly for helping the children that struggle most.
  - bayesian_horse 7y ago
    Is there any evidence that segregation is actually better for more intelligent students? And to what degree at what cost?
    - adrianN 7y ago
      I attended a talk about this topic that used the PISA dataset to show this (well it showed that in countries with segregated schools the performance of students had fatter tails on both sides of the mean iirc). I think the data should be available online somewhere.
      - ghaff 7y ago
        Yes. It appears that the more stratified educational systems are, the more variance in outcomes there is. e.g. [1] Which makes intuitive sense. While there's an intellectual argument for everyone benefiting from diversity of a student body, I'm not sure I'd expect to see a benefit in strictly measurable educational outcomes at least. And it's fairly obvious some of the ways that motivated and high achievement students could benefit from more customized and self-paced study while it's also obvious why a group of students lumped together as low achievers will do less well. [1] https://www.oecd.org/pisa/keyfindings/Vol4Ch2.pdf https://www.oecd.org/pisa/keyfindings/Vol4Ch2.pdf
    - ajsnigrutin 7y ago
      If you have a class full of "good" students, it's a lot easier to work and teach, than with a class where 1/3 is almost illiterate, 1/3 doesn't care at all, and only 1/3 actually wants to learn.
    - 7y ago
- k__ 7y ago
  At least they can keep going to school after this system ends. I know a bunch of people who either did Abitur (the requirement to study at a university) after going to Hauptschule or Realschule, or simply studied without Abitur, because the university simply made a test with them and lookd directly if they're smart enough.
- gherkinnn 7y ago
  Similar in Switzerland. Years 1-6 are for everyone. Then either: - 3 years of Realschule - 3 years of Sekundarschule - 6 years of Gymnasium (where one earns the possibility to go to Uni) Though it is quite normal to upgrade from Sek to Gymi 2 years in. The first two options are then followed by an apprenticeship (3-4y) during or after which one can also earn the ability to go to Uni, with some limitations. These limitations can be removed by upgrading that piece of paper, which takes a year. Complicated and I’m sure I forgot a few things. Point is that there are many paths and upgrading is quite possible. Also having a large part of the population trained in a trade Is fantastic.
bitwize 7y ago
In Japan, after the first six years of primary school come three years of middle school and three years of high school.
9HZZRfNlpR 7y ago
In the ex Soviet countries its main school 9 yrs that is obligatory, then gymnasium for another 3 years that in theory voluntary but everyone does as it's also necessary for university etc.
- chupasaurus 7y ago
  Wat? In USSR a middle school was 7 years in 1922-1958 and 8 years since 1958 and that was called an incomplete middle grade. It was mandatory in towns and working camps. The complete grade was always 10 years. Gymnasiums and lyceums differed from usual schools by having a altered program in some way. There always were schools which provided a complete middle grade. There was also a specialized middle grade after completing both middle and vocational school and it covered the entrance barrier as well as a free pass of 1-2 years in higher education if it was on the same course.
- Fnoord 7y ago
  > then gymnasium for another 3 years that in theory voluntary but everyone does as it's also necessary for university etc. Doubtful that "everyone does" as not "everyone" in USSR went to university (nor anywhere else in the world, for that matter).
- watwut 7y ago
  > then gymnasium for another 3 years that in theory voluntary but everyone does as it's also necessary for university etc. Most people don't go to university nor gymnasium in ex Soviet countries. It might have been among your social circles, but not everyone does it.
  - 9HZZRfNlpR 7y ago
    They do, when you go to trade school gymnasium is in it, just not that high level as one would expect to from a person preparing for uni.
    - watwut 7y ago
      No it is not. Trade schools are if two kinds. One does not even give the degree necessary for college. Plenty of kids go there. Other has such degree, but it is not gymnasium. Plus most absolvents don't go to college, are limited to easy colleges and have trouble to finish.
bawolff 7y ago
In canada, its common in a lot of places, but not universal. When I was growing up, we had K-8 in one school, and then 9-12 as high school, although I think my home town now has a middle school system.
- bachmeier 7y ago
  That's also true of the US. I did the same as you: K-8 followed by 9-12.
bsanr2 7y ago
Japan.
treerock 7y ago
England has it in some areas [1]. [1]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_school#The_three-tier_model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_school#The_three-tier_mo...
0x64 7y ago
Finland's got them - you've got 6 years of elementary school (7-12), 3 years of middle school (12-15), and then 3 years of high school, vocational school, or "business" school (15-18). You've also got the mandatory conscription for men, which usually happens after high school.
cf141q5325 7y ago
You can have a "Realschulabschluss" in Germany after year 10 of school. So primary 1-4 middle school in 5-10 and upper secondary education 11-13. In practice most will however not go directly to one of those middle schools but have their secondary education from grade 5 to 13 in the same school ("Gymnasium"). "Realschule" is as such for people who know in grade 4 that they will not go for a higher education but learn a trade after year 10. However, i should add that the 3 way school System, there is also "Hauptschule" where you leave after grade 9, is deeply broken when it comes to acceptance of these people in the economy.
- k__ 7y ago
  Yes, it is (or was) Hauptschule, Realschule and Gymnasium, but many states didn't have a Hauptschule or abolished it. Now, you go to something like the Realschule and leave it after 9 years to get a Hauptschulabschluss (lowest leven of highschool "degree") Also, while it sounds harsh that kids have to decide if they want to study with 18 when they're just 10 years old, it's possible to keep going to school after the 10 years of Realschule. The normal ways could look like this: Elementary School(1-4) -> Gynmasium(5-13) -> University(14-...) or like that: Elementary School(1-4) -> Realschule(5-10) -> Apprenticeship(11-13) But there are many different variations of that. I, for example, did it like that: Elementary School(1-4) -> Förderstufe(5-6) -> Realschule(7-10) -> Fachoberschule(11-12) -> University(13-17) The "Förderstufe" was two years of education where I was put into courses of different difficults to see in which system (Hauptschule, Realschule or Gynasium) I would do better, allowing me to decide when I was 12 (normally you had to decide when you were 10) Also, the "Fachoberschule" was two years I did after Realschule to get access to university. So I never went to a Gymnasium and still got to study computer science in the end.
pascalmahe 7y ago
In France we have them. There's "école primaire" from 6 to 10 (5 years), "collège" from 11 to 14 (4 years) and "lycée" from 15 to 17 (3 years). Anecdotally, most people I spoke to felt that middle school years were the hardest: figuring themselves out, low popularity but high-stakes social games. High school was somewhat easier, people have found their cliques and the pressure from the harder work and longer hours left less time to play social games. Off-topic but I have to get it off my chest: the years from middle school onwards have the dumbest names in France. They're named by counting backwards to the end of high school. So you start at "sixième" (sixth), go up to "cinquième" (fifth)... all the way to "première" (first), which is the before-last year! The last year is, of course, "terminale" (last, as in 'last in a series'). I'd love to convert to a sane naming scheme.
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  That's similar to the ranking of cadets in US service academies. Think of it not as progressing through grades, but rising through ranks: 4th class, 3rd, 2nd, and finally 1st class. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Military_Academy#Cadet_life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Military_Academy...
- virusduck 7y ago
  Something something four-twenties...
  - rollthehard6 7y ago
    Oh yeah, the Swiss French way is a lot less confusing.
C1sc0cat 7y ago
The UK varies some areas have Three tier some Two, and when I went through the system there was four Primary, Junior, Middle and Upper.
nicoburns 7y ago
Some parts of the UK still have middle schools (it's done on a Local Education Authority level), although they're gradually disappearing.
astura 7y ago
Many school districts in the US don't have middle schools. Elementary schools going up to 8th grade are fairly common as are combined Jr/Sr high schools (7-12 grade, occasionally 6-12 grade).
amyjess 7y ago
Japan. 6 years of shōgakkō [lit. "small school"], followed by 3 years of chūgaku [short for chūgakkō, lit. "middle school"], and then 3 years of kōkō [short for kōtōgakkō, lit. "advanced school"]. Years actually reset when you go from one school to another, so for example, nobody says "seventh grade" but rather "middle school first grade" [chūgaku ichi-nensei] (as a side note, I personally find such translations awkward and would always translate chūgaku ichi-nensei as "seventh grade"). Interestingly enough, while chūgaku literally means "middle school", it's more analogous to the American junior high model because it's years 7-9 (but again, nobody calls them that) and not 6-8 (and as such I prefer to translate chūgaku as "junior high school", though part of that is informed by growing up in a part of the US that uses the junior high model so translating it as such has more verisimilitude to me).

Apart from the US, where else has middle schools? Here in Scotland there is (Optionally) nursery, primary school (5-12) and then secondary school (12-16/18), no middle.

OJFord 7y ago

Some areas of the UK have them. (State schools in those areas anyway.) I believe as a deliberately modelled-on-America experiment some time ago that stuck in those locales but didn't expand.

bayesian_horse 7y ago

In Germany it's worse. We don't have a distinct middle school as such, but we have three parallel tiers after four years of elementary school. One is only until grade 9, one until grade 10, the third is up to 13 years. I'm leaving out a lot of details here, but basically students have to choose one track after elementary school. And upgrading is hard, especially because the lower tracks are "optimized for slower learners". Side-Note: As you might have guessed, the track selection has become more and more based on ethnicity. Studies have shown that such a tracked system is worse in every imaginable way. But it is extremely attractive to conservative academics.

ido 7y ago
A minor addendum: in Berlin & Brandenburg it's 6/6 years rather than 4/8.
GLjEI4YbnGD27LB 7y ago
I really liked the tracked system in the Netherlands. I feel like it really let the higher tier learn at a faster rate. Do you have links to the studies?
cf141q5325 7y ago
After a long discussion with little alternatives, my little cousin went to a Realschule mit Förderstufe. The problem with the school has less to do with ethnicity as i can see it but the fact that large parts of her class dont speak German good enough to be educated in it. And that they are not grouped up by language to help them catch up in their first language. Pair that with the "slower learner" approach and all of those kids are simply left behind. I dont think its an issue of racism but simply abandoning anyone who, for what ever reason, cant hold the pace. Simply no parent wants their kid to be in such a class with two multilingual teachers to at least partially cover multiple languages to try to communicate with the kids in their class. They have to deal with the consequences of not thought trough political maneuvers. And the kids who suffer from that are generally those that already live in precarious situations. Painting it as a problem of racism, misses the point entirely from what i have seen and I think framing it this way is deeply counterproductive when it comes to these fundamental issues of our education system.
- pluma 7y ago
  It's not so much intentionally racist as it is classist. When I was ready for secondary education, it was clear to me that Gymnasium or ("at least") Gesamtschule was where you went if you were later going to study in a university, Realschule was for trades and Hauptschule was for "stupid" (or "troubled") kids. Needless to say, it was clear to me that I had to go to Gymnasium and then university because both of my parents had attended university. Of course those were unfair generalisations but when I was in university I met many people who retained exactly the same perception of those differences.
  - bayesian_horse 7y ago
    You are kidding yourself if you think that system isn't also driven by racism. A few decades ago it was virtually impossible for Turkish children to attend Gymnasium, regardless of the grades. It is hard to quantify, but the attitudes of teachers, in elementary school and beyond, does shape this process. If they don't believe those children can catch up, they won't...
    - pluma 7y ago
      The point is that the division pre-dates the racist impact it has now. Racism and classism go hand in hand in this case the same way they do in many others. I don't think the multi-tiered system would be salvageable even if there was no racism involved. Whether you doom children to economic failure based on their ethnicity (or lack of fluency in German, which is often abused as a shorthand for "low intelligence") or because of their social status (manifesting in various ways that ultimately lead to "poor performance") doesn't make this system any fairer.
  - cf141q5325 7y ago
    I think it only got worse. What you describe was also point of view when i had to decide between Realschule and Gymnasium. Its not so easy to justify sending your kid to a Realschule anymore. Most people are aware that its likely a dead end for their kid. On the other hand, Gymnasium got also a lot more stressful for kids with the change from G9 to G8 (reduction from 13 years school in total to 12). Either way, i can just feel extremely lucky that i didnt have to go through that. I doubt it would have turned as good as it did for me today.
adrianN 7y ago
Studies actually have not shown that segregation is bad in every imaginable way. It really depends on what you want to optimize for. Segregation is excellent for letting intelligent kids reach their full potential. It's terribly for helping the children that struggle most.
- bayesian_horse 7y ago
  Is there any evidence that segregation is actually better for more intelligent students? And to what degree at what cost?
  - adrianN 7y ago
    I attended a talk about this topic that used the PISA dataset to show this (well it showed that in countries with segregated schools the performance of students had fatter tails on both sides of the mean iirc). I think the data should be available online somewhere.
    - ghaff 7y ago
      Yes. It appears that the more stratified educational systems are, the more variance in outcomes there is. e.g. [1] Which makes intuitive sense. While there's an intellectual argument for everyone benefiting from diversity of a student body, I'm not sure I'd expect to see a benefit in strictly measurable educational outcomes at least. And it's fairly obvious some of the ways that motivated and high achievement students could benefit from more customized and self-paced study while it's also obvious why a group of students lumped together as low achievers will do less well. [1] https://www.oecd.org/pisa/keyfindings/Vol4Ch2.pdf https://www.oecd.org/pisa/keyfindings/Vol4Ch2.pdf
  - ajsnigrutin 7y ago
    If you have a class full of "good" students, it's a lot easier to work and teach, than with a class where 1/3 is almost illiterate, 1/3 doesn't care at all, and only 1/3 actually wants to learn.
  - 7y ago
k__ 7y ago
At least they can keep going to school after this system ends. I know a bunch of people who either did Abitur (the requirement to study at a university) after going to Hauptschule or Realschule, or simply studied without Abitur, because the university simply made a test with them and lookd directly if they're smart enough.
gherkinnn 7y ago
Similar in Switzerland. Years 1-6 are for everyone. Then either: - 3 years of Realschule - 3 years of Sekundarschule - 6 years of Gymnasium (where one earns the possibility to go to Uni) Though it is quite normal to upgrade from Sek to Gymi 2 years in. The first two options are then followed by an apprenticeship (3-4y) during or after which one can also earn the ability to go to Uni, with some limitations. These limitations can be removed by upgrading that piece of paper, which takes a year. Complicated and I’m sure I forgot a few things. Point is that there are many paths and upgrading is quite possible. Also having a large part of the population trained in a trade Is fantastic.

bitwize 7y ago

In Japan, after the first six years of primary school come three years of middle school and three years of high school.

9HZZRfNlpR 7y ago

In the ex Soviet countries its main school 9 yrs that is obligatory, then gymnasium for another 3 years that in theory voluntary but everyone does as it's also necessary for university etc.

chupasaurus 7y ago
Wat? In USSR a middle school was 7 years in 1922-1958 and 8 years since 1958 and that was called an incomplete middle grade. It was mandatory in towns and working camps. The complete grade was always 10 years. Gymnasiums and lyceums differed from usual schools by having a altered program in some way. There always were schools which provided a complete middle grade. There was also a specialized middle grade after completing both middle and vocational school and it covered the entrance barrier as well as a free pass of 1-2 years in higher education if it was on the same course.
Fnoord 7y ago
> then gymnasium for another 3 years that in theory voluntary but everyone does as it's also necessary for university etc. Doubtful that "everyone does" as not "everyone" in USSR went to university (nor anywhere else in the world, for that matter).
watwut 7y ago
> then gymnasium for another 3 years that in theory voluntary but everyone does as it's also necessary for university etc. Most people don't go to university nor gymnasium in ex Soviet countries. It might have been among your social circles, but not everyone does it.
- 9HZZRfNlpR 7y ago
  They do, when you go to trade school gymnasium is in it, just not that high level as one would expect to from a person preparing for uni.
  - watwut 7y ago
    No it is not. Trade schools are if two kinds. One does not even give the degree necessary for college. Plenty of kids go there. Other has such degree, but it is not gymnasium. Plus most absolvents don't go to college, are limited to easy colleges and have trouble to finish.

bawolff 7y ago

In canada, its common in a lot of places, but not universal. When I was growing up, we had K-8 in one school, and then 9-12 as high school, although I think my home town now has a middle school system.

bachmeier 7y ago
That's also true of the US. I did the same as you: K-8 followed by 9-12.

bsanr2 7y ago

Japan.

treerock 7y ago

England has it in some areas [1]. [1]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_school#The_three-tier_model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_school#The_three-tier_mo...

0x64 7y ago

Finland's got them - you've got 6 years of elementary school (7-12), 3 years of middle school (12-15), and then 3 years of high school, vocational school, or "business" school (15-18). You've also got the mandatory conscription for men, which usually happens after high school.

cf141q5325 7y ago

You can have a "Realschulabschluss" in Germany after year 10 of school. So primary 1-4 middle school in 5-10 and upper secondary education 11-13. In practice most will however not go directly to one of those middle schools but have their secondary education from grade 5 to 13 in the same school ("Gymnasium"). "Realschule" is as such for people who know in grade 4 that they will not go for a higher education but learn a trade after year 10. However, i should add that the 3 way school System, there is also "Hauptschule" where you leave after grade 9, is deeply broken when it comes to acceptance of these people in the economy.

k__ 7y ago
Yes, it is (or was) Hauptschule, Realschule and Gymnasium, but many states didn't have a Hauptschule or abolished it. Now, you go to something like the Realschule and leave it after 9 years to get a Hauptschulabschluss (lowest leven of highschool "degree") Also, while it sounds harsh that kids have to decide if they want to study with 18 when they're just 10 years old, it's possible to keep going to school after the 10 years of Realschule. The normal ways could look like this: Elementary School(1-4) -> Gynmasium(5-13) -> University(14-...) or like that: Elementary School(1-4) -> Realschule(5-10) -> Apprenticeship(11-13) But there are many different variations of that. I, for example, did it like that: Elementary School(1-4) -> Förderstufe(5-6) -> Realschule(7-10) -> Fachoberschule(11-12) -> University(13-17) The "Förderstufe" was two years of education where I was put into courses of different difficults to see in which system (Hauptschule, Realschule or Gynasium) I would do better, allowing me to decide when I was 12 (normally you had to decide when you were 10) Also, the "Fachoberschule" was two years I did after Realschule to get access to university. So I never went to a Gymnasium and still got to study computer science in the end.

pascalmahe 7y ago

In France we have them. There's "école primaire" from 6 to 10 (5 years), "collège" from 11 to 14 (4 years) and "lycée" from 15 to 17 (3 years). Anecdotally, most people I spoke to felt that middle school years were the hardest: figuring themselves out, low popularity but high-stakes social games. High school was somewhat easier, people have found their cliques and the pressure from the harder work and longer hours left less time to play social games. Off-topic but I have to get it off my chest: the years from middle school onwards have the dumbest names in France. They're named by counting backwards to the end of high school. So you start at "sixième" (sixth), go up to "cinquième" (fifth)... all the way to "première" (first), which is the before-last year! The last year is, of course, "terminale" (last, as in 'last in a series'). I'd love to convert to a sane naming scheme.

dredmorbius 7y ago
That's similar to the ranking of cadets in US service academies. Think of it not as progressing through grades, but rising through ranks: 4th class, 3rd, 2nd, and finally 1st class. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Military_Academy#Cadet_life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Military_Academy...
virusduck 7y ago
Something something four-twenties...
- rollthehard6 7y ago
  Oh yeah, the Swiss French way is a lot less confusing.

C1sc0cat 7y ago

The UK varies some areas have Three tier some Two, and when I went through the system there was four Primary, Junior, Middle and Upper.

nicoburns 7y ago

Some parts of the UK still have middle schools (it's done on a Local Education Authority level), although they're gradually disappearing.

astura 7y ago

Many school districts in the US don't have middle schools. Elementary schools going up to 8th grade are fairly common as are combined Jr/Sr high schools (7-12 grade, occasionally 6-12 grade).

amyjess 7y ago

Japan. 6 years of shōgakkō [lit. "small school"], followed by 3 years of chūgaku [short for chūgakkō, lit. "middle school"], and then 3 years of kōkō [short for kōtōgakkō, lit. "advanced school"]. Years actually reset when you go from one school to another, so for example, nobody says "seventh grade" but rather "middle school first grade" [chūgaku ichi-nensei] (as a side note, I personally find such translations awkward and would always translate chūgaku ichi-nensei as "seventh grade"). Interestingly enough, while chūgaku literally means "middle school", it's more analogous to the American junior high model because it's years 7-9 (but again, nobody calls them that) and not 6-8 (and as such I prefer to translate chūgaku as "junior high school", though part of that is informed by growing up in a part of the US that uses the junior high model so translating it as such has more verisimilitude to me).