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In this light of recent heat up of issues with China, I want to share a positive story to contrast: I had a daily driver in Chengdu for over 1 month who spoke n

In this light of recent heat up of issues with China, I want to share a positive story to contrast: I had a daily driver in Chengdu for over 1 month who spoke no English, zero, none at all - not even "yes" or "no". We communicated via Google translate (on VPN). He would play Chinese music and then some days I would play some American rock and roll. We bonded in inexplicable ways. I had always commented on how I love the carved wooden letter that hangs on the taxi's rear-view mirror. The ride was almost 1 hour in the morning and 2 hours in the evening back to the Hotel. We became friends. On the last day, he took the wooden ornament off, cupped it in his palm, held it against his chest, gave it to me with a glimmer in his eyes. Fuck, that was the most amazing human connection I've ever made. I've worked in China in the semiconductor business, stayed there and absorbed some of the things the west does not even know. I recommend reading "Poorly Made in China (2011)" by Paul Midler. It is surprisingly good - factual, objective look of deep issues with China's way of doing things. I resonate with the book with my personal experience. Diplomacy is about being able to negotiate well, build trust and foster long term relationships, acknowledge mutual interests, differences and work towards solutions to problems. China has lost the brand image, probably forever. Despite a few positive experiences on the individual level, I hate working with Chinese businesses and would never want to go there. Fuck the Chinese government and its tentacles (Chinese corporations). The Chinese leadership does not understand that leadership is about inspiring others, taking care of the weak, keeping your promises and being able to independently think, innovate and set an example for other nations to follow. The way it is going, I can guarantee with certainty that they can have all the financial leverage, moral leverage is what you need in the long term; they can never become a superpower. Edit: grammar

bonoboTP 7y ago
> I had always commented on how I love the carved wooden letter that hangs on the taxi's rear-view mirror In many cultures it is disrespectful to make such comments, because they convey a thinly veiled demand to get the thing, otherwise the other person loses face for not being generous.
- spectramax 7y ago
  Perhaps I missed this obvious cultural sensitivity, I thought his gift to me was from genuine generosity in the true sense of the word.
  - vlunkr 7y ago
    Don’t let some rando from the internet re-frame your personal experience. You know better than them
  - munmaek 7y ago
    Don't change your opinion based on one random comment.
  - elSidCampeador 7y ago
    While you may have missed it, you're the best judge of whether he gave it to you out of genuine goodwill. If he did, then you're good.
  - bonoboTP 7y ago
    Too little info to tell for the specific case, but I heard many such stories, not just from east Asia. In general, gifts are complex. In some cultures you must refuse it some specific number of times, not to look greedy. But then you have to accept it, because getting help/gift is a bit submissive and results in gratefulness, and however little, the feeling of owing them back, which can create social ties.
- mc32 7y ago
  Yeah, but that’s within the culture. They’re not dolts. They know foreigners aren’t well versed in their nuances. Can you imagine thinking that Americans would feel disrespected because a visiting foreigner made a cultural faux pas? Oh my god, they didn’t stand up for the anthem!!! They asked my salary!!!
  - pishpash 7y ago
    Americans are currently feeling extremely disrespected and salty af because the Chinese government built from a different culture made a cultural faux pas of demanding organizational accountability for the speech of an employee, something that happens every day in China, both now and before there was ever a Communist party.
arvinsim 7y ago
> The way it is going, I can guarantee with certainty that they can have all the financial leverage, moral leverage is what you need in the long term; they can never become a superpower. I feel the same. This is especially apparent with how they handle their territorial disputes in South East Asia. Hard to become a superpower when you are antagonizing your neighbors.
- wutbrodo 7y ago
  > Hard to become a superpower when you are antagonizing your neighbors. Er, is this true? I'd have thought quite the opposite: hard to become a superpower _without_ antagonizing neighbors.
  - arvinsim 7y ago
    Yeah but superpowers do try to avoid it, not actively foment it.
  - maratd 7y ago
    Do you truly feel that the US has antagonized Canada and Mexico within the past 100 years? I'm pretty sure they're our closest allies.
    - davidgay 7y ago
      It's technically (just) more than 100 years, but the Zimmerman Telegram (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimmermann_Telegram https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimmermann_Telegram) is not something your (potential) enemy sends to one of your "closest allies".
    - saghm 7y ago
      I definitely think there has been some antagonism from the US government towards Mexico a lot more recently than 100 years ago
    - jcranmer 7y ago
      The line of 100 years just misses the US occupation of Veracruz and the Zimmerman Telegram (or the Mexican Revolution in general), which was one of the lowest points of US-Mexico relations. US-Canada relations were pretty testy in the pre-WWI era as well, and the declassification of War Plan Red [1] did cause a brief stir. Then again, the US has antagonized many countries simply by electing Donald Trump. [1] In the inter-war period, the US military used a series of color classification schemes to sketch out what the US response to wars with various countries would look like. Red was Britain. And in event of war with the UK, the US plan was to invade Canada, irrespective of Canada declaring neutrality (which was Canada's plan in such a scenario).
riffraff 7y ago
> moral leverage is what you need in the long term; they can never become a superpower. I do not understand what you mean by this, and what long term is to you. I want to be convinced, but I fail to see this as true. What would be a superpower in your eyes, and which of the past examples of morally problematic powers (USSR, British/Spanish/Portuguese/French empires,for example) do you consider not to meet the definition, or not to have been "long term"?
- nordsieck 7y ago
  >> moral leverage is what you need in the long term; they can never become a superpower. > I do not understand what you mean by this, and what long term is to you. I want to be convinced, but I fail to see this as true. I too am curious what it means. The only thing comes to mind is a variation of the just world fallacy.
- koonsolo 7y ago
  I see it as a difference where people want to join, or are forced to join. Nobody wants to be part of a immoral power, because the immoral stuff will happen to you too. People want a just and fair system. I split it like this: do you have people at the borders to keep people out, or keep people in. If you have to use force to keep your own citizens and regions in, well good luck to you. On the other hand, if you have to refuse people and regions to join you, you're in a very good position. That's why you can only keep using force and supression for so long, and history has shown that we evolve to more fair, moral systems.
  - AstralStorm 7y ago
    People want to join anywhere where it's economically better. Following the victor, whoever they are, whatever they believe, is a common feature of all empires. The reality is that most people are too busy for either politics or morality.
- augstein 7y ago
  I guess one thing that is obvious, is that an oppressive country like China can never win the race to attract the brightest, most creative minds. Nowadays people have options on where to live and from what I can see, these kind of people mostly prefer to live in more liberal societies.
lacampbell 7y ago
So to sum up - we should deal with a regime that runs concentration camps and threatens its neighbours because you once met a nice taxi driver. I'm convinced!
- tlrobinson 7y ago
  Try reading the rest of the comment.
- jackyinger 7y ago
  What a shallow reading! The point is that you can have wonderful individuals in an otherwise hostile culture. Or, human connections transcend barriers. I’ve had similar experiences as a foreigner in China among other countries.
  - irrational 7y ago
    I've read stories of wonderful individuals who were also Nazis, but the Nazis still needed to be destroyed.
- Jare 7y ago
  No, to sum it up: bad, immoral, oppressive governments do not reflect the perfectly good human qualities of some/most of the population they govern. Hate the Chinese government, not the Chinese people.
tanilama 7y ago
> The Chinese leadership does not understand that leadership is about inspiring others, taking care of the weak, keeping your promises and being able to independently think, innovate and set an example for other nations to follow Which nation is demonstrating this leadership then? In the current world, no one. I believe firmly on the other hand: hard power is what makes a superpower, superpower. US is the superpower not for the moral sugar coating, which itself is an afterthought and curated national mythology by the said scholars, but for the dollar's reserve status and the military that enforces such status. China probably couldn't be the superpower like US in 90s, a role model that everyone aspires to be. However in a world everyone is equally self-centric and nationalism-driven, it surely can be a superpower.
devy 7y ago
> they can never become a superpower. China has long been a world super power for thousands of years, and probably only lost that title after European renaissance. Read some history[1] dude. > I had a daily driver in Chengdu for over 1 month who spoke no English, zero, none at all - not even "yes" or "no". We communicated via Google translate (on VPN). > I recommend reading "Poorly Made in China (2011)" by Paul Midler. It is surprisingly good - factual, objective look of deep issues with China's way of doing things. I resonate with the book with my personal experience. > Diplomacy is about being able to negotiate well, build trust and foster long term relationships, acknowledge mutual interests and work towards solutions to problems. China has lost the brand image, probably forever. I don't understand your sentiments here. You started your story by telling everyone you don't speak Chinese and can't communicate with local Chinese people and then later you said China lost the brand image, how can you come to that conclusion if you don't even speak Chinese understand the culture? Without understanding each other, how do you "negotiate well, build trust"? If all you know about China is based on the readings on NYT on China and a 2009 book about Chinese products (which btw, was originally published ten years ago in 2009[2], not 2011 as you mentioned) and your experience in semiconductor sector, then your view about China is very biased(due to NYT's long standing anti-China editorial board) limited, narrow minded and a decade outdated. Lastly, your repeatedly usage of F-bomb doesn't make your arguments stronger, but make your seem like you have poor vocabulary. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_China [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poorly_Made_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poorly_Made_in_China
- abandonliberty 7y ago
  Hi, I'm curious what you think of the five demands
  - devy 7y ago
    Disclaimer: I am biased just as most people here in the discussions. But I am bi-lingual and I read lots (hundreds) articles both in English & Chinese (Simplified & Traditional) and I've been to Hong Kong and have had personal experiences working with HK Police. And I also have Hong Kong friends both native (born in HK) and immigrants from mainland. There was an OpEd[1] written by Ronny K. W. Tong, a former chairman of the Hong Kong Bar Association, posted on SCMP, a major local Hong Kong newspaper published in English. I agree with it. Of all the five demands: 1. Full withdrawal of the extradition bill. This is kinda of BS, even though HK government has completed gave in on this. The bill is effectively dead. But just think about it, this is about a case where a murder suspect who committed murder and was supposed to be face justice. HK law is probably too lenient on capital punishment than in mainland, which the suspect is mostly like to be served with death penalty. I can understand the fear HKers towards a in-transparent justice system with potential political descendants abuse. 2. A commission of inquiry into alleged police brutality This is also BS. My first hand experience with HK Police has been very positive and professional. Any riots with colour revolution approach and significant violence against law enforcement, major damages to public infrastructure like subway stations, government buildings, and not a single protester was killed but hundreds of HK police officers were injured some were badly injured, a few were blind due to protester shooting high powered laser beams into the eyes of officers in short distance and doxxing against thousands of HK police officers and their spouses/children, this is practically unheard of anywhere in the history. The restraint there is unmatched. Can you imagine if this happened in the U.S.? Any protester & violent rioters dare to post threat to law enforcement/police officers, they will be shoot or tased or choked dead. Pretty sure you will get near zero chance to win in arguing police brutality with the judge either. Ok, maybe U.S. is not a good example to compare to because gun ownership makes it unique. But what about the HK Police during British ruling? I haven't seen any comparison report before 1997 vs. after 1997. I will challenge the protester to do some homework on that topic and leave it at that. 3 Retracting the classification of protesters as “rioters” BS x 3. See #2. Protest became violent, lots of HK Police officers were hurt and injured, even officers' spouses and children became doxxing victims. If this is not riots what is? 4. Amnesty for arrested protesters BS x 4. You know what's screw-up after all these arrests? The foreign judges free them! Yes, you heard that right. Hong Kong inherits the legal justice system from the British ruling, like any other western countries, the judges are appointed for life. And you know what, most of the top judges are foreigners who are also citizens from the Commonwealth, by definition, that means these judges also pledge the allegiances to other countries in additional to Hong Kong. How could the judge be unbiased if they have dual/triple citizenship? What if their allegiances to other Commonwealth countries has a conflict of interests to their jobs as Hong Kong judges? This is also unheard of in any countries with a fair record of justice systems. Obviously, those foreign judges doesn't like to be criticized.[2] They want to keep it that way.[3][4]. If I were a Hong Konger, I certainly won't like to be judged by a foreign judge especially the judge pledge the allegiance to a hostile nation (UK) with a strong political biased than my own country (China). 5. Dual universal suffrage, meaning for both the Legislative Council and the Chief Executive This wasn't part of the 1997 deal between UK + China. Hong Kong had never had universal suffrage under British ruling. So what makes the protesters think they will have a leverage on negotiating that? If the government doesn't agree to it, they burn down the whole city, block the subway and airport and make every Hong Konger suffer? I am being cynical here, under the current situation neither Beijing nor Hong Kong government would consider that. I've read many OpEds and discussions, the consensus of mainland media focus on the living standard of average Hong Kongers were the major cause of social unrest. I agree with that. The five demands have no bearing on changing the lives of lower class Hong Kongers and on the future hope of young Hong Kongers. Instead, they should be asking for changes in legislation on public housing (one of most expensive places to live on earth), on economic stimulus in creating jobs for youngsters, narrowing a huge income gap between the ultra wealthy and the poor lower class (a city with slightly less population with 20 billionaires with net worth over $2B, totally $170B, or 55% of the GDP controlled by 20 people/families, how did Hong Kong end up like that?[5]). The social economical divide is astonishing. Although democracy is arguably an ultimate destination for citizens to ask for, democracy doesn't necessary solve Hong Kong's social + economical problems that I outlined. Additionally, democracy doesn't necessarily bring prosperity, there are authoritarian states that people have a much better living standards, namely Saudi., UAE, Qatar and a bunch of middle eastern countries, and then there is Singapore. The 5 demands of Hong Kong Rioters totally miss the point of urgent issues and introduce violence and break law & order is the wrong way for all of Hong Kong people. Let alone vast majority of the Hong Kong people did not fully agree with the protesters to begin with. That's my opinion on the 5 demands. [1]: https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3017719/hong-kong-extradition-protesters-made-five-demands-carrie-lam https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3017719/hong-ko... [2]: https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/law-crime/article/2096143/criticism-over-judges-nationality-unhelpful-and https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/law-crime/article/209614... [3]: https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/2096355/foreign-judges-must-be-retained-hong-kong-former-chief https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/2096355... [4]: https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/opinion/article/2128060/why-criticising-hong-kongs-foreign-judges-not-understanding-city https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/opinion/article/2128060/why-c... [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hong_Kong_people_by_net_worth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hong_Kong_people_by_ne...

bonoboTP 7y ago

> I had always commented on how I love the carved wooden letter that hangs on the taxi's rear-view mirror In many cultures it is disrespectful to make such comments, because they convey a thinly veiled demand to get the thing, otherwise the other person loses face for not being generous.

spectramax 7y ago
Perhaps I missed this obvious cultural sensitivity, I thought his gift to me was from genuine generosity in the true sense of the word.
- vlunkr 7y ago
  Don’t let some rando from the internet re-frame your personal experience. You know better than them
- munmaek 7y ago
  Don't change your opinion based on one random comment.
- elSidCampeador 7y ago
  While you may have missed it, you're the best judge of whether he gave it to you out of genuine goodwill. If he did, then you're good.
- bonoboTP 7y ago
  Too little info to tell for the specific case, but I heard many such stories, not just from east Asia. In general, gifts are complex. In some cultures you must refuse it some specific number of times, not to look greedy. But then you have to accept it, because getting help/gift is a bit submissive and results in gratefulness, and however little, the feeling of owing them back, which can create social ties.
mc32 7y ago
Yeah, but that’s within the culture. They’re not dolts. They know foreigners aren’t well versed in their nuances. Can you imagine thinking that Americans would feel disrespected because a visiting foreigner made a cultural faux pas? Oh my god, they didn’t stand up for the anthem!!! They asked my salary!!!
- pishpash 7y ago
  Americans are currently feeling extremely disrespected and salty af because the Chinese government built from a different culture made a cultural faux pas of demanding organizational accountability for the speech of an employee, something that happens every day in China, both now and before there was ever a Communist party.

arvinsim 7y ago

> The way it is going, I can guarantee with certainty that they can have all the financial leverage, moral leverage is what you need in the long term; they can never become a superpower. I feel the same. This is especially apparent with how they handle their territorial disputes in South East Asia. Hard to become a superpower when you are antagonizing your neighbors.

wutbrodo 7y ago
> Hard to become a superpower when you are antagonizing your neighbors. Er, is this true? I'd have thought quite the opposite: hard to become a superpower _without_ antagonizing neighbors.
- arvinsim 7y ago
  Yeah but superpowers do try to avoid it, not actively foment it.
- maratd 7y ago
  Do you truly feel that the US has antagonized Canada and Mexico within the past 100 years? I'm pretty sure they're our closest allies.
  - davidgay 7y ago
    It's technically (just) more than 100 years, but the Zimmerman Telegram (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimmermann_Telegram https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimmermann_Telegram) is not something your (potential) enemy sends to one of your "closest allies".
  - saghm 7y ago
    I definitely think there has been some antagonism from the US government towards Mexico a lot more recently than 100 years ago
  - jcranmer 7y ago
    The line of 100 years just misses the US occupation of Veracruz and the Zimmerman Telegram (or the Mexican Revolution in general), which was one of the lowest points of US-Mexico relations. US-Canada relations were pretty testy in the pre-WWI era as well, and the declassification of War Plan Red [1] did cause a brief stir. Then again, the US has antagonized many countries simply by electing Donald Trump. [1] In the inter-war period, the US military used a series of color classification schemes to sketch out what the US response to wars with various countries would look like. Red was Britain. And in event of war with the UK, the US plan was to invade Canada, irrespective of Canada declaring neutrality (which was Canada's plan in such a scenario).

riffraff 7y ago

> moral leverage is what you need in the long term; they can never become a superpower. I do not understand what you mean by this, and what long term is to you. I want to be convinced, but I fail to see this as true. What would be a superpower in your eyes, and which of the past examples of morally problematic powers (USSR, British/Spanish/Portuguese/French empires,for example) do you consider not to meet the definition, or not to have been "long term"?

nordsieck 7y ago
>> moral leverage is what you need in the long term; they can never become a superpower. > I do not understand what you mean by this, and what long term is to you. I want to be convinced, but I fail to see this as true. I too am curious what it means. The only thing comes to mind is a variation of the just world fallacy.
koonsolo 7y ago
I see it as a difference where people want to join, or are forced to join. Nobody wants to be part of a immoral power, because the immoral stuff will happen to you too. People want a just and fair system. I split it like this: do you have people at the borders to keep people out, or keep people in. If you have to use force to keep your own citizens and regions in, well good luck to you. On the other hand, if you have to refuse people and regions to join you, you're in a very good position. That's why you can only keep using force and supression for so long, and history has shown that we evolve to more fair, moral systems.
- AstralStorm 7y ago
  People want to join anywhere where it's economically better. Following the victor, whoever they are, whatever they believe, is a common feature of all empires. The reality is that most people are too busy for either politics or morality.
augstein 7y ago
I guess one thing that is obvious, is that an oppressive country like China can never win the race to attract the brightest, most creative minds. Nowadays people have options on where to live and from what I can see, these kind of people mostly prefer to live in more liberal societies.

lacampbell 7y ago

So to sum up - we should deal with a regime that runs concentration camps and threatens its neighbours because you once met a nice taxi driver. I'm convinced!

tlrobinson 7y ago
Try reading the rest of the comment.
jackyinger 7y ago
What a shallow reading! The point is that you can have wonderful individuals in an otherwise hostile culture. Or, human connections transcend barriers. I’ve had similar experiences as a foreigner in China among other countries.
- irrational 7y ago
  I've read stories of wonderful individuals who were also Nazis, but the Nazis still needed to be destroyed.
Jare 7y ago
No, to sum it up: bad, immoral, oppressive governments do not reflect the perfectly good human qualities of some/most of the population they govern. Hate the Chinese government, not the Chinese people.

tanilama 7y ago

> The Chinese leadership does not understand that leadership is about inspiring others, taking care of the weak, keeping your promises and being able to independently think, innovate and set an example for other nations to follow Which nation is demonstrating this leadership then? In the current world, no one. I believe firmly on the other hand: hard power is what makes a superpower, superpower. US is the superpower not for the moral sugar coating, which itself is an afterthought and curated national mythology by the said scholars, but for the dollar's reserve status and the military that enforces such status. China probably couldn't be the superpower like US in 90s, a role model that everyone aspires to be. However in a world everyone is equally self-centric and nationalism-driven, it surely can be a superpower.

devy 7y ago

> they can never become a superpower. China has long been a world super power for thousands of years, and probably only lost that title after European renaissance. Read some history[1] dude. > I had a daily driver in Chengdu for over 1 month who spoke no English, zero, none at all - not even "yes" or "no". We communicated via Google translate (on VPN). > I recommend reading "Poorly Made in China (2011)" by Paul Midler. It is surprisingly good - factual, objective look of deep issues with China's way of doing things. I resonate with the book with my personal experience. > Diplomacy is about being able to negotiate well, build trust and foster long term relationships, acknowledge mutual interests and work towards solutions to problems. China has lost the brand image, probably forever. I don't understand your sentiments here. You started your story by telling everyone you don't speak Chinese and can't communicate with local Chinese people and then later you said China lost the brand image, how can you come to that conclusion if you don't even speak Chinese understand the culture? Without understanding each other, how do you "negotiate well, build trust"? If all you know about China is based on the readings on NYT on China and a 2009 book about Chinese products (which btw, was originally published ten years ago in 2009[2], not 2011 as you mentioned) and your experience in semiconductor sector, then your view about China is very biased(due to NYT's long standing anti-China editorial board) limited, narrow minded and a decade outdated. Lastly, your repeatedly usage of F-bomb doesn't make your arguments stronger, but make your seem like you have poor vocabulary. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_China [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poorly_Made_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poorly_Made_in_China

abandonliberty 7y ago
Hi, I'm curious what you think of the five demands
- devy 7y ago
  Disclaimer: I am biased just as most people here in the discussions. But I am bi-lingual and I read lots (hundreds) articles both in English & Chinese (Simplified & Traditional) and I've been to Hong Kong and have had personal experiences working with HK Police. And I also have Hong Kong friends both native (born in HK) and immigrants from mainland. There was an OpEd[1] written by Ronny K. W. Tong, a former chairman of the Hong Kong Bar Association, posted on SCMP, a major local Hong Kong newspaper published in English. I agree with it. Of all the five demands: 1. Full withdrawal of the extradition bill. This is kinda of BS, even though HK government has completed gave in on this. The bill is effectively dead. But just think about it, this is about a case where a murder suspect who committed murder and was supposed to be face justice. HK law is probably too lenient on capital punishment than in mainland, which the suspect is mostly like to be served with death penalty. I can understand the fear HKers towards a in-transparent justice system with potential political descendants abuse. 2. A commission of inquiry into alleged police brutality This is also BS. My first hand experience with HK Police has been very positive and professional. Any riots with colour revolution approach and significant violence against law enforcement, major damages to public infrastructure like subway stations, government buildings, and not a single protester was killed but hundreds of HK police officers were injured some were badly injured, a few were blind due to protester shooting high powered laser beams into the eyes of officers in short distance and doxxing against thousands of HK police officers and their spouses/children, this is practically unheard of anywhere in the history. The restraint there is unmatched. Can you imagine if this happened in the U.S.? Any protester & violent rioters dare to post threat to law enforcement/police officers, they will be shoot or tased or choked dead. Pretty sure you will get near zero chance to win in arguing police brutality with the judge either. Ok, maybe U.S. is not a good example to compare to because gun ownership makes it unique. But what about the HK Police during British ruling? I haven't seen any comparison report before 1997 vs. after 1997. I will challenge the protester to do some homework on that topic and leave it at that. 3 Retracting the classification of protesters as “rioters” BS x 3. See #2. Protest became violent, lots of HK Police officers were hurt and injured, even officers' spouses and children became doxxing victims. If this is not riots what is? 4. Amnesty for arrested protesters BS x 4. You know what's screw-up after all these arrests? The foreign judges free them! Yes, you heard that right. Hong Kong inherits the legal justice system from the British ruling, like any other western countries, the judges are appointed for life. And you know what, most of the top judges are foreigners who are also citizens from the Commonwealth, by definition, that means these judges also pledge the allegiances to other countries in additional to Hong Kong. How could the judge be unbiased if they have dual/triple citizenship? What if their allegiances to other Commonwealth countries has a conflict of interests to their jobs as Hong Kong judges? This is also unheard of in any countries with a fair record of justice systems. Obviously, those foreign judges doesn't like to be criticized.[2] They want to keep it that way.[3][4]. If I were a Hong Konger, I certainly won't like to be judged by a foreign judge especially the judge pledge the allegiance to a hostile nation (UK) with a strong political biased than my own country (China). 5. Dual universal suffrage, meaning for both the Legislative Council and the Chief Executive This wasn't part of the 1997 deal between UK + China. Hong Kong had never had universal suffrage under British ruling. So what makes the protesters think they will have a leverage on negotiating that? If the government doesn't agree to it, they burn down the whole city, block the subway and airport and make every Hong Konger suffer? I am being cynical here, under the current situation neither Beijing nor Hong Kong government would consider that. I've read many OpEds and discussions, the consensus of mainland media focus on the living standard of average Hong Kongers were the major cause of social unrest. I agree with that. The five demands have no bearing on changing the lives of lower class Hong Kongers and on the future hope of young Hong Kongers. Instead, they should be asking for changes in legislation on public housing (one of most expensive places to live on earth), on economic stimulus in creating jobs for youngsters, narrowing a huge income gap between the ultra wealthy and the poor lower class (a city with slightly less population with 20 billionaires with net worth over $2B, totally $170B, or 55% of the GDP controlled by 20 people/families, how did Hong Kong end up like that?[5]). The social economical divide is astonishing. Although democracy is arguably an ultimate destination for citizens to ask for, democracy doesn't necessary solve Hong Kong's social + economical problems that I outlined. Additionally, democracy doesn't necessarily bring prosperity, there are authoritarian states that people have a much better living standards, namely Saudi., UAE, Qatar and a bunch of middle eastern countries, and then there is Singapore. The 5 demands of Hong Kong Rioters totally miss the point of urgent issues and introduce violence and break law & order is the wrong way for all of Hong Kong people. Let alone vast majority of the Hong Kong people did not fully agree with the protesters to begin with. That's my opinion on the 5 demands. [1]: https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3017719/hong-kong-extradition-protesters-made-five-demands-carrie-lam https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3017719/hong-ko... [2]: https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/law-crime/article/2096143/criticism-over-judges-nationality-unhelpful-and https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/law-crime/article/209614... [3]: https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/2096355/foreign-judges-must-be-retained-hong-kong-former-chief https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/2096355... [4]: https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/opinion/article/2128060/why-criticising-hong-kongs-foreign-judges-not-understanding-city https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/opinion/article/2128060/why-c... [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hong_Kong_people_by_net_worth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hong_Kong_people_by_ne...