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Learn more about iCloud in China mainland

76 points by quantisan 7y ago

quantisan 7y ago
Learned this from one of the Blizzard threads [1]. I'm surprised this move by Apple went unnoticed on HN. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21207949 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21207949
- tptacek 7y ago
  It's been covered previously on HN, extensively, for a long time. https://hn.algolia.com/?q=icloud+china https://hn.algolia.com/?q=icloud+china
  - quantisan 7y ago
    Indeed. The linked Apple Support page marked the page as published on Oct 1, 2019 so I assumed it's new.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  It hasn’t; it comes up every time Apple and privacy is discussed.
olliej 7y ago
I feel this should have a very basic statement: "Apple does/does not store or provide access to encryption keys or plaintext of content uploaded to iCloud services" This "support" page says nothing at all about what is actually encrypted vs. faux-encrypted.
- HHad3 7y ago
  Apple maintains a separate document on how individual content is encrypted [1]. Note that it is not apparent whether some of data listed under "end-to-end encrypted" is also included with iCloud Backups. [1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303
  - maximente 7y ago
    suppose i have an iphone 7 and a macbook air. i would like to know (to the extent possible) if it is possible to keep encrypted messages in iMessage accessible only on the iPhone while keeping photos available in iCloud/cross device. after reading the link, it seems that as long as i do not have iCloud enabled for messages, no matter what other services i have enabled iCloud enabled for, i'm OK - for example, i do have photo iCloud backup enabled. can anyone confirm that's what happens?
    - saagarjha 7y ago
      You’ll also probably need to disable iMessage on your Mac.
    - Despegar 7y ago
      You can have iCloud enabled for Messages, but if you have iCloud Backup on then the keys are stored in the backup. >Messages in iCloud also uses end-to-end encryption. If you have iCloud Backup turned on, your backup includes a copy of the key protecting your Messages. This ensures you can recover your Messages if you lose access to iCloud Keychain and your trusted devices. When you turn off iCloud Backup, a new key is generated on your device to protect future messages and isn't stored by Apple.
- foota 7y ago
  That's not true though? Edit: I'm not familiar with this beyond previous discussion on hn, so could be wrong.
Despegar 7y ago
Not only is this not news there's a lot of FUD about it. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20904857 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20904857 Reposting my comment: Apple has already publicly said in court filings, and under threat of perjury, that they don't make any exceptions for China. From Apple's filing [1]: >Finally, the government attempts to disclaim the obvious international implications of its demand, asserting that any pressure to hand over the same software to foreign agents “flows from [Apple’s] decision to do business in foreign countries . . . .” Opp. 26. Contrary to the government’s misleading statistics (Opp. 26), which had to do with lawful process and did not compel the creation of software that undermines the security of its users, Apple has never built a back door of any kind into iOS, or otherwise made data stored on the iPhone or in iCloud more technically accessible to any country’s government. See Dkt. 16-28 [Apple Inc., Privacy, Gov’t Info. Requests]; Federighi Decl. ¶¶ 6–7. The government is wrong in asserting that Apple made “special accommodations” for China (Opp. 26), as Apple uses the same security protocols everywhere in the world and follows the same standards for responding to law enforcement requests. See Federighi Decl. ¶ 5. and a declaration from Craig Federighi personally [2]: >Apple uses the same security protocols everywhere in the world. >Apple has never made user data, whether stored on the iPhone or in iCloud, more technologically accessible to any country's government. We believe any such access is too dangerous to allow. Apple has also not provided any government with its proprietary iOS source code. While governmental agencies in various countries, including the United States, perform regulatory reviews of new iPhone releases, all that Apple provides in those circumstances is an unmodified iPhone device. >It is my understanding that Apple has never worked with any government agency from any country to create a "backdoor" in any of our products and services. >I declare under penalty of perjury under the laws of the United States of America that the foregoing is true and correct. When China wants something from iCloud they do it the same way that law enforcement does it everywhere in the world, which is through Apple. [1] https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/2762131/C-D-Cal-16-Cm-00010-Dckt-000177-000-Filed-2016.pdf https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/2762131/C-D-Cal-1... [2] https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2762118-Federighi-Decl-Executed.html#document/p1 https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2762118-Federighi-De...
- tptacek 7y ago
  Rather than reposting the same comment, the better thing to do here is flag the story.
GeekyBear 7y ago
This is required to operate under Chinese law. For instance, here is Microsoft's description of their own compliance. >Keep your data within datacenters located in China with an Azure China account and stay compliant with international and industry-specific compliance standards. Access to your customer data is controlled by an independent company in China, 21Vianet. Not even Microsoft can access your data without approval and oversight by 21Vianet. https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/global-infrastructure/china/ https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/global-infrastructure/chin...

76 points by quantisan 7y ago

Learned this from one of the Blizzard threads [1]. I'm surprised this move by Apple went unnoticed on HN. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21207949 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21207949

tptacek 7y ago
It's been covered previously on HN, extensively, for a long time. https://hn.algolia.com/?q=icloud+china https://hn.algolia.com/?q=icloud+china
- quantisan 7y ago
  Indeed. The linked Apple Support page marked the page as published on Oct 1, 2019 so I assumed it's new.
saagarjha 7y ago
It hasn’t; it comes up every time Apple and privacy is discussed.

olliej 7y ago

I feel this should have a very basic statement: "Apple does/does not store or provide access to encryption keys or plaintext of content uploaded to iCloud services" This "support" page says nothing at all about what is actually encrypted vs. faux-encrypted.

HHad3 7y ago
Apple maintains a separate document on how individual content is encrypted [1]. Note that it is not apparent whether some of data listed under "end-to-end encrypted" is also included with iCloud Backups. [1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303
- maximente 7y ago
  suppose i have an iphone 7 and a macbook air. i would like to know (to the extent possible) if it is possible to keep encrypted messages in iMessage accessible only on the iPhone while keeping photos available in iCloud/cross device. after reading the link, it seems that as long as i do not have iCloud enabled for messages, no matter what other services i have enabled iCloud enabled for, i'm OK - for example, i do have photo iCloud backup enabled. can anyone confirm that's what happens?
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    You’ll also probably need to disable iMessage on your Mac.
  - Despegar 7y ago
    You can have iCloud enabled for Messages, but if you have iCloud Backup on then the keys are stored in the backup. >Messages in iCloud also uses end-to-end encryption. If you have iCloud Backup turned on, your backup includes a copy of the key protecting your Messages. This ensures you can recover your Messages if you lose access to iCloud Keychain and your trusted devices. When you turn off iCloud Backup, a new key is generated on your device to protect future messages and isn't stored by Apple.
foota 7y ago
That's not true though? Edit: I'm not familiar with this beyond previous discussion on hn, so could be wrong.

Despegar 7y ago

Not only is this not news there's a lot of FUD about it. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20904857 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20904857 Reposting my comment: Apple has already publicly said in court filings, and under threat of perjury, that they don't make any exceptions for China. From Apple's filing [1]: >Finally, the government attempts to disclaim the obvious international implications of its demand, asserting that any pressure to hand over the same software to foreign agents “flows from [Apple’s] decision to do business in foreign countries . . . .” Opp. 26. Contrary to the government’s misleading statistics (Opp. 26), which had to do with lawful process and did not compel the creation of software that undermines the security of its users, Apple has never built a back door of any kind into iOS, or otherwise made data stored on the iPhone or in iCloud more technically accessible to any country’s government. See Dkt. 16-28 [Apple Inc., Privacy, Gov’t Info. Requests]; Federighi Decl. ¶¶ 6–7. The government is wrong in asserting that Apple made “special accommodations” for China (Opp. 26), as Apple uses the same security protocols everywhere in the world and follows the same standards for responding to law enforcement requests. See Federighi Decl. ¶ 5. and a declaration from Craig Federighi personally [2]: >Apple uses the same security protocols everywhere in the world. >Apple has never made user data, whether stored on the iPhone or in iCloud, more technologically accessible to any country's government. We believe any such access is too dangerous to allow. Apple has also not provided any government with its proprietary iOS source code. While governmental agencies in various countries, including the United States, perform regulatory reviews of new iPhone releases, all that Apple provides in those circumstances is an unmodified iPhone device. >It is my understanding that Apple has never worked with any government agency from any country to create a "backdoor" in any of our products and services. >I declare under penalty of perjury under the laws of the United States of America that the foregoing is true and correct. When China wants something from iCloud they do it the same way that law enforcement does it everywhere in the world, which is through Apple. [1] https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/2762131/C-D-Cal-16-Cm-00010-Dckt-000177-000-Filed-2016.pdf https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/2762131/C-D-Cal-1... [2] https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2762118-Federighi-Decl-Executed.html#document/p1 https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2762118-Federighi-De...

tptacek 7y ago
Rather than reposting the same comment, the better thing to do here is flag the story.

GeekyBear 7y ago

This is required to operate under Chinese law. For instance, here is Microsoft's description of their own compliance. >Keep your data within datacenters located in China with an Azure China account and stay compliant with international and industry-specific compliance standards. Access to your customer data is controlled by an independent company in China, 21Vianet. Not even Microsoft can access your data without approval and oversight by 21Vianet. https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/global-infrastructure/china/ https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/global-infrastructure/chin...