3 ms·

While you’re right, it’s unfortunately not that simple because macOS updates really do break a lot of stuff (especially for developers) and, on older hardware,

by klmr 7y ago

While you’re right, it’s unfortunately not that simple because macOS updates really do break a lot of stuff (especially for developers) and, on older hardware, degrade performance to the point of un-usability. I’ve got an MBP from 2012, and I’ve stopped updating macOS with Sierra (10.12) due to ever degrading performance. I’ll be forced to throw away the (perfectly functional!) laptop at some point once I stop receiving security updates.

dlivingston 7y ago
> macOS updates really do break a lot of stuff (especially for developers) Weird example, as most of your users will be using a more recent version of macOS. So, while you're code isn't 'broken' for you, on your 6+ year old OS, it's broken for the vast majority of end users who will want to compile your code.
- jlokier 7y ago
  Weird response. Probably most developers are not shipping code for end users to compile. Of those, most are probably developing websites and webapps, and the only thing about the end user that matters is which browser, not which OS, let alone version. But there are also developers writing apps that include older devices in their target. That means avoid the newest Mac tools because you can't compile for old enough targets on it. Then there are Mac app developers that include older versions of the OS in their target market, and have to use older tools to ensure the target range is covered. This gets harder over time because Apple makes it deliberately hard. Some of them even write mobile apps that target users of older devices. Shocking, I know, but there are a lot of users of older iOS devices these days, and sometimes you're tasked with making an app for them. Then there are developers whose work talks to dev hardware attached to the computer, which needs drivers, which stop being supported at some OS version. The end users get a lump of hardware, and all the developer needs is an OS that can talk to the dev kit. Then there are developers doing maintenance on older MacOS, iOS, or device firmware, and produce updates that are drop-in compatible to exactly the same set of target users as are already running the software. Not every consumer app will bother with this, but some business-critical things demand it. I think the use case of "end users who will want to compile your code" is almost negligably small in comparison, and Linux is probably a better OS for doing that sort of thing anyway :-) I've done all the above, on Mac, Windows, and Linux. VMs work great for Linux, and ok for Windows. Mac is a pain for this, because of Apple's policies to try to make it difficult.
  - dlivingston 7y ago
    > most are probably developing websites and webapp And you can't port your NPM, React, etc. environment over to a new OS without breaking things? > the only thing about the end user that matters is which browser As a web dev, you want to use the latest ES/HTML/CSS specs while still targeting as many users as possible. How can you target modern users when the browsers on your 6-year old system isn't up-to-date enough to render what most users will see? > Then there are Mac app developers that include older versions of the OS in their target market, and have to use older tools to ensure the target range is covered. This gets harder over time because Apple makes it deliberately hard. This is a valid point. There are still people compiling on and for Windows XP and MS-DOS machines, after all. Hell, you can find hobbyists who only like writing Commodore 64 programs. Writing to target older platforms is hyper-niche and the computer you use to do that shouldn't be your main workstation. > Shocking, I know, but there are a lot of users of older iOS devices these days, and sometimes you're tasked with making an app for them. In which context? Given that 97% of devices are on iOS 11 or later (https://twitter.com/reneritchie/status/1159288325003460609 https://twitter.com/reneritchie/status/1159288325003460609), I can't imagine why you care about those users. > Then there are developers whose work talks to dev hardware attached to the computer, which needs drivers, which stop being supported at some OS version. The end users get a lump of hardware, and all the developer needs is an OS that can talk to the dev kit. This is a valid point. > Then there are developers doing maintenance on older MacOS, iOS, or device firmware, and produce updates that are drop-in compatible to exactly the same set of target users as are already running the software. Not every consumer app will bother with this, but some business-critical things demand it. A valid point as well - this is exactly the context in which COBOL is still used. > I think the use case of "end users who will want to compile your code" is almost negligably small in comparison, and Linux is probably a better OS for doing that sort of thing anyway :-) That's...not true. macOS developers exist, you know, and there's a reason that Macs ship with a strong tooling kit. Besides, if you distribute dynamically-linked binaries, you want an up-to-date OS so that the dylibs you're linking to actually exist... Just some thoughts from a junior dev :)
    - jlokier 7y ago
      > As a web dev, you want to use the latest ES/HTML/CSS specs [...]. How can you target modern users when the browsers on your 6-year old system isn't up-to-date enough to render what most users will see? You can run latest browsers just fine. I'm talking to you now through Firefox Beta that was released a couple of days ago, on my 6 years old OS. It works just great, latest ES/HTML/CSS specs and all, same as yours. It's more up to date than my phone! However, if you're serious about testing, portability, accessibility, inclusion, quality, and just looking good to a worldwide audience for your site or app, then you won't rely on testing in a single browser on your own machine. Especially if your own machine is running the latest bleeding-edge version (as mine is). You may be using something like Selenium, BrowserStack, Sauce Labs etc. with a testing pipeline. Or (as I do), a bunch of browsers in cloud-based VMs. Even if it's just a manual testing pipeline, there are so many ways a complex web app can render or behave differently on different browsers it's not funny, so well worth testing complex things. Imagine trying to write something like a mini Google Sheets or Docs without testing on different browsers, while intending for it to be usable to a wide audience. It would break in more ways than you could imagine from testing only on the latest browser on your own machine. > Given that 97% of devices are on iOS 11 or later [...] I can't imagine why you care about those users. Not all apps are for consumers. And not all apps are for distribution on an app store. And some on a store are for particular audiences. For example government apps, financial services apps targetting people with little cash, and those running on fleets of purchased devices in a business (such as tablets) for a dedicated purpose. E.g. one of those I've dealt with was effectively a museum full of tablets fixed in place. Nodody's going to purchase new hardware in quantity if the old ones are working fine, just to please a developer who can't figure out how to built for an old target. (When I did that job, it wasn't iOS, but the same principle applies.) > A valid point as well - this is exactly the context in which COBOL is still used. I wonder if you're trying to suggest "really really old" with COBOL :-) The same maintenance issues apply to maintaining apps released just a couple of years ago, which supported 5 year old devices at the time they were released, and so aim to maintain the same until they have a major version change. (Especially business apps rolled out on a fleet of purchased devices, where continuity is a requirement. But also, consumer apps if you care about the customers.) > macOS developers exist, you know I do know, where do you think this thread came from :-) But the vast majority of shipped code is not open source, and when it is, most of it is used only on servers or inside devices.

by klmr 7y ago

dlivingston 7y ago

> macOS updates really do break a lot of stuff (especially for developers) Weird example, as most of your users will be using a more recent version of macOS. So, while you're code isn't 'broken' for you, on your 6+ year old OS, it's broken for the vast majority of end users who will want to compile your code.

jlokier 7y ago
Weird response. Probably most developers are not shipping code for end users to compile. Of those, most are probably developing websites and webapps, and the only thing about the end user that matters is which browser, not which OS, let alone version. But there are also developers writing apps that include older devices in their target. That means avoid the newest Mac tools because you can't compile for old enough targets on it. Then there are Mac app developers that include older versions of the OS in their target market, and have to use older tools to ensure the target range is covered. This gets harder over time because Apple makes it deliberately hard. Some of them even write mobile apps that target users of older devices. Shocking, I know, but there are a lot of users of older iOS devices these days, and sometimes you're tasked with making an app for them. Then there are developers whose work talks to dev hardware attached to the computer, which needs drivers, which stop being supported at some OS version. The end users get a lump of hardware, and all the developer needs is an OS that can talk to the dev kit. Then there are developers doing maintenance on older MacOS, iOS, or device firmware, and produce updates that are drop-in compatible to exactly the same set of target users as are already running the software. Not every consumer app will bother with this, but some business-critical things demand it. I think the use case of "end users who will want to compile your code" is almost negligably small in comparison, and Linux is probably a better OS for doing that sort of thing anyway :-) I've done all the above, on Mac, Windows, and Linux. VMs work great for Linux, and ok for Windows. Mac is a pain for this, because of Apple's policies to try to make it difficult.
- dlivingston 7y ago
  > most are probably developing websites and webapp And you can't port your NPM, React, etc. environment over to a new OS without breaking things? > the only thing about the end user that matters is which browser As a web dev, you want to use the latest ES/HTML/CSS specs while still targeting as many users as possible. How can you target modern users when the browsers on your 6-year old system isn't up-to-date enough to render what most users will see? > Then there are Mac app developers that include older versions of the OS in their target market, and have to use older tools to ensure the target range is covered. This gets harder over time because Apple makes it deliberately hard. This is a valid point. There are still people compiling on and for Windows XP and MS-DOS machines, after all. Hell, you can find hobbyists who only like writing Commodore 64 programs. Writing to target older platforms is hyper-niche and the computer you use to do that shouldn't be your main workstation. > Shocking, I know, but there are a lot of users of older iOS devices these days, and sometimes you're tasked with making an app for them. In which context? Given that 97% of devices are on iOS 11 or later (https://twitter.com/reneritchie/status/1159288325003460609 https://twitter.com/reneritchie/status/1159288325003460609), I can't imagine why you care about those users. > Then there are developers whose work talks to dev hardware attached to the computer, which needs drivers, which stop being supported at some OS version. The end users get a lump of hardware, and all the developer needs is an OS that can talk to the dev kit. This is a valid point. > Then there are developers doing maintenance on older MacOS, iOS, or device firmware, and produce updates that are drop-in compatible to exactly the same set of target users as are already running the software. Not every consumer app will bother with this, but some business-critical things demand it. A valid point as well - this is exactly the context in which COBOL is still used. > I think the use case of "end users who will want to compile your code" is almost negligably small in comparison, and Linux is probably a better OS for doing that sort of thing anyway :-) That's...not true. macOS developers exist, you know, and there's a reason that Macs ship with a strong tooling kit. Besides, if you distribute dynamically-linked binaries, you want an up-to-date OS so that the dylibs you're linking to actually exist... Just some thoughts from a junior dev :)
  - jlokier 7y ago
    > As a web dev, you want to use the latest ES/HTML/CSS specs [...]. How can you target modern users when the browsers on your 6-year old system isn't up-to-date enough to render what most users will see? You can run latest browsers just fine. I'm talking to you now through Firefox Beta that was released a couple of days ago, on my 6 years old OS. It works just great, latest ES/HTML/CSS specs and all, same as yours. It's more up to date than my phone! However, if you're serious about testing, portability, accessibility, inclusion, quality, and just looking good to a worldwide audience for your site or app, then you won't rely on testing in a single browser on your own machine. Especially if your own machine is running the latest bleeding-edge version (as mine is). You may be using something like Selenium, BrowserStack, Sauce Labs etc. with a testing pipeline. Or (as I do), a bunch of browsers in cloud-based VMs. Even if it's just a manual testing pipeline, there are so many ways a complex web app can render or behave differently on different browsers it's not funny, so well worth testing complex things. Imagine trying to write something like a mini Google Sheets or Docs without testing on different browsers, while intending for it to be usable to a wide audience. It would break in more ways than you could imagine from testing only on the latest browser on your own machine. > Given that 97% of devices are on iOS 11 or later [...] I can't imagine why you care about those users. Not all apps are for consumers. And not all apps are for distribution on an app store. And some on a store are for particular audiences. For example government apps, financial services apps targetting people with little cash, and those running on fleets of purchased devices in a business (such as tablets) for a dedicated purpose. E.g. one of those I've dealt with was effectively a museum full of tablets fixed in place. Nodody's going to purchase new hardware in quantity if the old ones are working fine, just to please a developer who can't figure out how to built for an old target. (When I did that job, it wasn't iOS, but the same principle applies.) > A valid point as well - this is exactly the context in which COBOL is still used. I wonder if you're trying to suggest "really really old" with COBOL :-) The same maintenance issues apply to maintaining apps released just a couple of years ago, which supported 5 year old devices at the time they were released, and so aim to maintain the same until they have a major version change. (Especially business apps rolled out on a fleet of purchased devices, where continuity is a requirement. But also, consumer apps if you care about the customers.) > macOS developers exist, you know I do know, where do you think this thread came from :-) But the vast majority of shipped code is not open source, and when it is, most of it is used only on servers or inside devices.