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Source on Apple giving iCloud keys to China?

kop316 7y ago
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208351 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208351 They allow a Chinese company to manage iCloud data.
- lilyball 7y ago
  They are legally required to do this. The alternative was completely disabling iCloud in China. This only applies to Chinese users of course.
  - ChrisAntaki 7y ago
    Google Drive is disabled in China
  - throwaway713 7y ago
    You say this as though many companies are not already practicing that alternative.
    - panpanna 7y ago
      Google for one. Although I think they have regretted that decision.
      - bduerst 7y ago
        How so? Trade war affects you the least (and your competition the most) if you're not even in the country.
        panpanna 7y ago
        Take Android for example: there are multiple competing app stores in China, many very shady by our standards. This has also created a market for very cheap uncertified Android phones+ accompanying malware.
        bduerst 7y ago
        Android is open source so of course the lowest tier phone OEMs are going to fork/use it. I was in Shanghai a while and could buy counterfeit iphones too despite Apple being there.
      - chongli 7y ago
        Google did not have as much skin in the game as Apple does. If Apple defied the CCP, they could lose their factories overnight. To say this would cause immense damage is an understatement. They would have no product to sell within weeks and they would have no means to produce anything. It would be catastrophic. Google, on the other hand, walked away from China and it's business as usual for them.
        sseth 7y ago
        At the time of walking away they had 33% of the Chinese search market - so it is hard to see how they did not have skin in the game - to lose all access to the largest market in the world forever. And not only for search, but also youtube, android and so many other things.
    - lilyball 7y ago
      The alternative benefits nobody. Google famously pulled out of China rather than censor, but that was just a PR move because they already were failing in China. I'd argue that censorship is an altogether different situation anyway. Apple removing iCloud from China helps literally nobody. Chinese users don't have an alternative that isn't subject to the same Chinese laws. Any user that wishes to resort to less-than-legal alternatives can do so whether or not Apple provides iCloud services. Ultimately this boils down to "should the Chinese court systems be able to decide when to hand data over to the Chinese government", because that's the effect of using a Chinese partner company to manage the iCloud data. For everyone else it's "should the US court systems be able to decide" instead, which honestly isn't all that much better.
      - lilyball 7y ago
        Just once I wish someone would put forward an actual argument as to why Apple disabling iCloud in China benefits literally anybody.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - soulofmischief 7y ago
    And? Companies here are legally required to respect NDAs and hand over large swaths of personal information. "bUT iT'S LEgAL" is not a valid excuse for anything, at any given time.
  - K0SM0S 7y ago
    What happens when you travel to China? Is it documented by Apple?
  - kop316 7y ago
    They were legally subpoenaed in the San Bernardino case too: https://www.apple.com/customer-letter/ https://www.apple.com/customer-letter/ Tim Cook even said: "Compromising the security of our personal information can ultimately put our personal safety at risk." And yet, here he is in China compromising personal data, all to make a buck.
bduerst 7y ago
In early 2018, Apple forced their users to opt-in to migrating iCloud encryption keys and data to Chinese data centers: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-apple-icloud-insight/apple-moves-to-store-icloud-keys-in-china-raising-human-rights-fears-idUSKCN1G8060 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-apple-icloud-insigh... Chinese government nationalized the data centers six months later, gaining access to all the encryption keys and user iCloud data at rest. Apple complied: https://mashable.com/article/china-government-apple-icloud-data/#ahDzcDZPeiqd https://mashable.com/article/china-government-apple-icloud-d...

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208351 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208351 They allow a Chinese company to manage iCloud data.

lilyball 7y ago
They are legally required to do this. The alternative was completely disabling iCloud in China. This only applies to Chinese users of course.
- ChrisAntaki 7y ago
  Google Drive is disabled in China
- throwaway713 7y ago
  You say this as though many companies are not already practicing that alternative.
  - panpanna 7y ago
    Google for one. Although I think they have regretted that decision.
    - bduerst 7y ago
      How so? Trade war affects you the least (and your competition the most) if you're not even in the country.
      - panpanna 7y ago
        Take Android for example: there are multiple competing app stores in China, many very shady by our standards. This has also created a market for very cheap uncertified Android phones+ accompanying malware.
        bduerst 7y ago
        Android is open source so of course the lowest tier phone OEMs are going to fork/use it. I was in Shanghai a while and could buy counterfeit iphones too despite Apple being there.
    - chongli 7y ago
      Google did not have as much skin in the game as Apple does. If Apple defied the CCP, they could lose their factories overnight. To say this would cause immense damage is an understatement. They would have no product to sell within weeks and they would have no means to produce anything. It would be catastrophic. Google, on the other hand, walked away from China and it's business as usual for them.
      - sseth 7y ago
        At the time of walking away they had 33% of the Chinese search market - so it is hard to see how they did not have skin in the game - to lose all access to the largest market in the world forever. And not only for search, but also youtube, android and so many other things.
  - lilyball 7y ago
    The alternative benefits nobody. Google famously pulled out of China rather than censor, but that was just a PR move because they already were failing in China. I'd argue that censorship is an altogether different situation anyway. Apple removing iCloud from China helps literally nobody. Chinese users don't have an alternative that isn't subject to the same Chinese laws. Any user that wishes to resort to less-than-legal alternatives can do so whether or not Apple provides iCloud services. Ultimately this boils down to "should the Chinese court systems be able to decide when to hand data over to the Chinese government", because that's the effect of using a Chinese partner company to manage the iCloud data. For everyone else it's "should the US court systems be able to decide" instead, which honestly isn't all that much better.
    - lilyball 7y ago
      Just once I wish someone would put forward an actual argument as to why Apple disabling iCloud in China benefits literally anybody.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- soulofmischief 7y ago
  And? Companies here are legally required to respect NDAs and hand over large swaths of personal information. "bUT iT'S LEgAL" is not a valid excuse for anything, at any given time.
- K0SM0S 7y ago
  What happens when you travel to China? Is it documented by Apple?
- kop316 7y ago
  They were legally subpoenaed in the San Bernardino case too: https://www.apple.com/customer-letter/ https://www.apple.com/customer-letter/ Tim Cook even said: "Compromising the security of our personal information can ultimately put our personal safety at risk." And yet, here he is in China compromising personal data, all to make a buck.

bduerst 7y ago

In early 2018, Apple forced their users to opt-in to migrating iCloud encryption keys and data to Chinese data centers: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-apple-icloud-insight/apple-moves-to-store-icloud-keys-in-china-raising-human-rights-fears-idUSKCN1G8060 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-apple-icloud-insigh... Chinese government nationalized the data centers six months later, gaining access to all the encryption keys and user iCloud data at rest. Apple complied: https://mashable.com/article/china-government-apple-icloud-data/#ahDzcDZPeiqd https://mashable.com/article/china-government-apple-icloud-d...