6 ms·

As much as I want to think change will happen, it's much more likely this will be a few weeks of PR and ultimately nothing will change. For something to change

As much as I want to think change will happen, it's much more likely this will be a few weeks of PR and ultimately nothing will change. For something to change people have to vote with their wallets. In this context that means cancelling subscriptions or dropping games they are already playing in favor for ones by competitors with better integrity, and I don't see that happening. Diablo players could go to Path of Exile, its closest competitor, but that game is massively invested into China as well and partially owned by Tencent. Warcraft RTS players represent a small market right now with almost no microtransactions or ongoing revenue. WoW players have alternatives, but not many I am aware of that aren't heavily Chinese based as the MMORPG category is dominated by Chinese companies like Perfect World. Starcraft players don't have a lot of alternatives as SC has dominated the esports and highly polished RTS category for over 5 years with the same game. The closest competitor would be Age of Empires or Warhammer, I'm not sure how much influence China has over them, but they are different types of RTS games. Heroes of the Storm players can go to Dota or LoL. LoL being owned by China and Dota being owned by Valve with strong Chinese market involvement. More alternatives are needed IMO.

minimaxir 7y ago
A common albeit reductive meme around the entire controversy is that Blizzard games were already declining in popularity (especially Starcraft and HotS) so it's easy to boycott them. Path of Exile is an interesting case as I know a lot of Diablo players went there since Diablo III is effectively on life support (including myself), but the resurfacing of the Tencent ownership news is causing ethical complications: https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/df5zx7/anyone_else_suddenly_worried_about_ggg_censoring/ https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/df5zx7/anyone_...
- my_usernam3 7y ago
  On the contrary, wow classic was setting twitch records just a month ago. Obviously that spike in popularity will not be sustained, but still worth noting and shows the size of Blizzard as a brand.
- jiggawatts 7y ago
  Grinding Gear Games (GGG), the makers of Path of Exile have recently been purchased by Tencent, with an 80% stake. This ownership will increase to 100% in the next couple of years. If you want to boycott pro-China companies, PoE and GGG aren't a good choice!
  - ddtaylor 7y ago
    Torchlight, another popular alternative ARPG, is also owned by Runic Games which was purchased by Perfect World, which is owned and operated out of China.
    - MrMember 7y ago
      Crate Entertainment, makers of Grim Dawn, still appear to be independent at least.
- cwkoss 7y ago
  Thanks, I was just considering getting back into PoE, but I'll look for other ARPGs. Any recommendations? I've heard good things about Grim Dawn
  - cannonedhamster 7y ago
    If you haven't checked out Spiderweb Software games it's worth at least a glance. The graphics aren't really anything but serviceable, but the stories have tons of depth and replayability.
- soulofmischief 7y ago
  Tencent also owns Riot Games and a portion of Reddit. Tik Tok, etc... We are talking one massive boycot, here. Besides Reddit (of which a boycott doesn't make much sense without an alternative), I don't use any service which I know Tencent has stake in.
- jknoepfler 7y ago
  I think the good will that Blizzard earned with their early games has been eroding for a long time. They did, legitimately, used to have enormous community good will. I can think of two ways that's eroded: (1) Blizzard's early games earned huge amounts of goodwill by enabling players to mod them. The map editor of Warcraft and the UI mod-ability of WoW let people build entire communities around modded content (DotA, for example!). To my knowledge games after Starcraft II have largely lacked anything resembling this kind of functionality (please correct me if I'm wrong). Hearthstone, HotS, Diablo 3, and Overwatch all have 100% of their content locked down from the top down. I don't think the contribution of mods to the longevity of Blizzard's early titles can be overstated, and I'm confused why they haven't kept up that spirit. (2) Blizzard has had a long string of eyebrow-raising failures to foster the competitive gaming scene, which they've been tone-deaf on since at least Starcraft II. They pulled the cord entirely on HotS after getting the game into great shape, the kept the Overwatch meta unbelievably stale for years, the Hearthstone Grandmaster League has been a joke on multiple fronts (in addition to an objectively stupid format decision for the first season, they insist on reserving seats in their flagship tournament for popular streamers rather than top players, resulting in some just... awful games). In general they try to retain far too much control and stifle anything they feel inconveniences them. Add to that (3) a string of jaw-droppingly bad community management moves ("you think you want that"... Diablo for mobile...) and (4) Activision looming like an insect and (5) lots of Bizarre changes to games to appease Blizzard China I don't know, I used to perceive Blizzard as a good steward for games. Now I don't think the game makers have that degree of control over the company's decisions, or their priorities have changed. So it doesn't surprise me that people were as quick to kick them to the curb as they were. It would have 10 years ago, but not today.
  - hnick 7y ago
    You're right, the goodwill has been eroding for this lifelong fan. I adored Starcraft: Brood War, it was great to play online even over dial-up and relatively well balanced (though looking back I think that was mostly by accident) and as you say it had a great mod scene when you wanted to take a break from serious competition. I didn't particularly like the shift to heroes, creeps, and semi-3D in Warcraft 3, but that's a personal opinion. Then they hit me with Diablo 3 -> Starcraft 2 -> Hearthstone. Diablo 3's faults are well documented, it's apparently in a good place now but that ship has sailed for me. Starcraft 2 just didn't feel good to play for me. The snappy control and clean sprites of SC:BW was replaced with muddy 3D visuals and slow turning 3D models. And Hearthstone was fun, but they dialed up the RNG to entice casual players and make streams exciting. It got annoying to keep rolling the dice - both when opening packs and in the game (Dr Boom anyone?). It took a while but eventually I realised their spark and magic was gone. They're just another AAA developer that I mostly ignore now.
Avery3R 7y ago
FFXIV is a wow alternative that isn't chinese based afaik
- hnick 7y ago
  Yes, fully Japanese, and I can recommend it. I think it's the #2 subscription MMO at the moment, the recent expansion was very well received and there's been a big influx of 'WOW Refugees' but that's mostly because BFA didn't land well. If anyone is prompted to try it then be aware that everything under ARR (up to level 50) is a real slog. The slower pace didn't bother me but makes some people quit before the good bits.
seph-reed 7y ago
Alternatively, this could be a good time to pick up a new hobby.
Noos 7y ago
Keep in mind its Activision-Blizzard, not just Blizzard. Even if you boycotted all Blizzard products, the call of duty series and candy crush would take the hit. Also, I don't think it would work period; if Blizzard made this a hill to die on, it's because the Chinese market must be growing and higher profit than the west. The people who pay set the rules.
- Fnoord 7y ago
  BlizzCon is within a month. Express yourselves there, and vote with your wallet.
  - onlyrealcuzzo 7y ago
    Please let there be massive protests about this at BlizzCon.
    - CharlesColeman 7y ago
      Attendees should cosplay by wearing yellow hardhats and pink 3M respirators.
- bsder 7y ago
  > The people who pay set the rules. Good, then let them exist only in China. Somehow, if Blizzard has to choose, I think it will dump China first. Just a hunch.
- s1artibartfast 7y ago
  The fun part about this is that it is publicly disclosed information. Blizzard revenue for Q1 & Q2 2019 were 88% in Americas and EMEA, with 12% in Asia Pacific. The percents are unchanged from 2018. https://investor.activision.com/news-releases/news-release-details/activision-blizzard-announces-second-quarter-2019-financial https://investor.activision.com/news-releases/news-release-d...
- hkmaxpro 7y ago
  Mark Kern (former Blizzard employee and team lead of World of Warcraft) offers a different explanation: https://twitter.com/Grummz/status/1181737774132518912 https://twitter.com/Grummz/status/1181737774132518912 Read the whole thread. It's bribes and subsidies.
Fnoord 7y ago
GW2 is owned by ArenaNet, which is owned by NCSoft. Which is a South Korean company.
cwkoss 7y ago
Seems like a strong market opportunity for game companies that are willing to reject Chinese investment and influence.
seanalltogether 7y ago
> As much as I want to think change will happen, it's much more likely this will be a few weeks of PR and ultimately nothing will change. I would agree with you if this wasn't all tied to ongoing protests in Hong Kong and a continued trade war with China that both don't appear like they're going to be resolved any time soon. Blizzard has inadvertently added an anchor to the situation without a clear way of removing it.
cannonedhamster 7y ago
Did not realize that PFE was Chinese. Thanks for the heads up. Sorry to see you go STO.
Nasrudith 7y ago
The lack of will towards cancellation doesn't seem to be an issue given that Activision Blizzard has an "overloaded" account deletion feature which shows they have had enough deletions to make them afraid and decided to break the law over it. Some additions though: I know for RTSes AOE2 is still shockingly active and viable as it happens to have landed on "peak RTS complexity" from a combination of minimal auto along with some unique features like one of the fewer RTSes to have a remotely accurate tooth to tail ratio - it is extraordinarily rare for the military to outnumber the civilian sector and if you are in that position unless victory is assured defeat is inevitable. AOE2 is conveniently open in its protocols and they demonstrate why independence from competitive tournaments is important to game making. From a business standpoint the best choice isn't to kowtow but to stay not responsible for it. Which is an ironic but tangible advantage for open software and giving up control. Even the unreasonable can see that any controversial actions are not your fault just like Lego can't stop you from building dongs and swastikas with their bricks. Personally I suspect MMOs would be harder to replace by "flavor" from how out of Zeitgeist they are after so many tried and failed to create WOW killers they stopped trying. Combined with Free To Play models sucking much of the staple player base away. Even longtime rivals or disliked MMO variants mourn the passing or decline of others. They have effectively become period pieces in many ways - not dead but in clear twilight.

minimaxir 7y ago

A common albeit reductive meme around the entire controversy is that Blizzard games were already declining in popularity (especially Starcraft and HotS) so it's easy to boycott them. Path of Exile is an interesting case as I know a lot of Diablo players went there since Diablo III is effectively on life support (including myself), but the resurfacing of the Tencent ownership news is causing ethical complications: https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/df5zx7/anyone_else_suddenly_worried_about_ggg_censoring/ https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/df5zx7/anyone_...

my_usernam3 7y ago
On the contrary, wow classic was setting twitch records just a month ago. Obviously that spike in popularity will not be sustained, but still worth noting and shows the size of Blizzard as a brand.
jiggawatts 7y ago
Grinding Gear Games (GGG), the makers of Path of Exile have recently been purchased by Tencent, with an 80% stake. This ownership will increase to 100% in the next couple of years. If you want to boycott pro-China companies, PoE and GGG aren't a good choice!
- ddtaylor 7y ago
  Torchlight, another popular alternative ARPG, is also owned by Runic Games which was purchased by Perfect World, which is owned and operated out of China.
  - MrMember 7y ago
    Crate Entertainment, makers of Grim Dawn, still appear to be independent at least.
cwkoss 7y ago
Thanks, I was just considering getting back into PoE, but I'll look for other ARPGs. Any recommendations? I've heard good things about Grim Dawn
- cannonedhamster 7y ago
  If you haven't checked out Spiderweb Software games it's worth at least a glance. The graphics aren't really anything but serviceable, but the stories have tons of depth and replayability.
soulofmischief 7y ago
Tencent also owns Riot Games and a portion of Reddit. Tik Tok, etc... We are talking one massive boycot, here. Besides Reddit (of which a boycott doesn't make much sense without an alternative), I don't use any service which I know Tencent has stake in.
jknoepfler 7y ago
I think the good will that Blizzard earned with their early games has been eroding for a long time. They did, legitimately, used to have enormous community good will. I can think of two ways that's eroded: (1) Blizzard's early games earned huge amounts of goodwill by enabling players to mod them. The map editor of Warcraft and the UI mod-ability of WoW let people build entire communities around modded content (DotA, for example!). To my knowledge games after Starcraft II have largely lacked anything resembling this kind of functionality (please correct me if I'm wrong). Hearthstone, HotS, Diablo 3, and Overwatch all have 100% of their content locked down from the top down. I don't think the contribution of mods to the longevity of Blizzard's early titles can be overstated, and I'm confused why they haven't kept up that spirit. (2) Blizzard has had a long string of eyebrow-raising failures to foster the competitive gaming scene, which they've been tone-deaf on since at least Starcraft II. They pulled the cord entirely on HotS after getting the game into great shape, the kept the Overwatch meta unbelievably stale for years, the Hearthstone Grandmaster League has been a joke on multiple fronts (in addition to an objectively stupid format decision for the first season, they insist on reserving seats in their flagship tournament for popular streamers rather than top players, resulting in some just... awful games). In general they try to retain far too much control and stifle anything they feel inconveniences them. Add to that (3) a string of jaw-droppingly bad community management moves ("you think you want that"... Diablo for mobile...) and (4) Activision looming like an insect and (5) lots of Bizarre changes to games to appease Blizzard China I don't know, I used to perceive Blizzard as a good steward for games. Now I don't think the game makers have that degree of control over the company's decisions, or their priorities have changed. So it doesn't surprise me that people were as quick to kick them to the curb as they were. It would have 10 years ago, but not today.
- hnick 7y ago
  You're right, the goodwill has been eroding for this lifelong fan. I adored Starcraft: Brood War, it was great to play online even over dial-up and relatively well balanced (though looking back I think that was mostly by accident) and as you say it had a great mod scene when you wanted to take a break from serious competition. I didn't particularly like the shift to heroes, creeps, and semi-3D in Warcraft 3, but that's a personal opinion. Then they hit me with Diablo 3 -> Starcraft 2 -> Hearthstone. Diablo 3's faults are well documented, it's apparently in a good place now but that ship has sailed for me. Starcraft 2 just didn't feel good to play for me. The snappy control and clean sprites of SC:BW was replaced with muddy 3D visuals and slow turning 3D models. And Hearthstone was fun, but they dialed up the RNG to entice casual players and make streams exciting. It got annoying to keep rolling the dice - both when opening packs and in the game (Dr Boom anyone?). It took a while but eventually I realised their spark and magic was gone. They're just another AAA developer that I mostly ignore now.

Avery3R 7y ago

FFXIV is a wow alternative that isn't chinese based afaik

hnick 7y ago
Yes, fully Japanese, and I can recommend it. I think it's the #2 subscription MMO at the moment, the recent expansion was very well received and there's been a big influx of 'WOW Refugees' but that's mostly because BFA didn't land well. If anyone is prompted to try it then be aware that everything under ARR (up to level 50) is a real slog. The slower pace didn't bother me but makes some people quit before the good bits.

seph-reed 7y ago

Alternatively, this could be a good time to pick up a new hobby.

Noos 7y ago

Keep in mind its Activision-Blizzard, not just Blizzard. Even if you boycotted all Blizzard products, the call of duty series and candy crush would take the hit. Also, I don't think it would work period; if Blizzard made this a hill to die on, it's because the Chinese market must be growing and higher profit than the west. The people who pay set the rules.

Fnoord 7y ago
BlizzCon is within a month. Express yourselves there, and vote with your wallet.
- onlyrealcuzzo 7y ago
  Please let there be massive protests about this at BlizzCon.
  - CharlesColeman 7y ago
    Attendees should cosplay by wearing yellow hardhats and pink 3M respirators.
bsder 7y ago
> The people who pay set the rules. Good, then let them exist only in China. Somehow, if Blizzard has to choose, I think it will dump China first. Just a hunch.
s1artibartfast 7y ago
The fun part about this is that it is publicly disclosed information. Blizzard revenue for Q1 & Q2 2019 were 88% in Americas and EMEA, with 12% in Asia Pacific. The percents are unchanged from 2018. https://investor.activision.com/news-releases/news-release-details/activision-blizzard-announces-second-quarter-2019-financial https://investor.activision.com/news-releases/news-release-d...
hkmaxpro 7y ago
Mark Kern (former Blizzard employee and team lead of World of Warcraft) offers a different explanation: https://twitter.com/Grummz/status/1181737774132518912 https://twitter.com/Grummz/status/1181737774132518912 Read the whole thread. It's bribes and subsidies.

Fnoord 7y ago

GW2 is owned by ArenaNet, which is owned by NCSoft. Which is a South Korean company.

cwkoss 7y ago

Seems like a strong market opportunity for game companies that are willing to reject Chinese investment and influence.

seanalltogether 7y ago

> As much as I want to think change will happen, it's much more likely this will be a few weeks of PR and ultimately nothing will change. I would agree with you if this wasn't all tied to ongoing protests in Hong Kong and a continued trade war with China that both don't appear like they're going to be resolved any time soon. Blizzard has inadvertently added an anchor to the situation without a clear way of removing it.

cannonedhamster 7y ago

Did not realize that PFE was Chinese. Thanks for the heads up. Sorry to see you go STO.

Nasrudith 7y ago

The lack of will towards cancellation doesn't seem to be an issue given that Activision Blizzard has an "overloaded" account deletion feature which shows they have had enough deletions to make them afraid and decided to break the law over it. Some additions though: I know for RTSes AOE2 is still shockingly active and viable as it happens to have landed on "peak RTS complexity" from a combination of minimal auto along with some unique features like one of the fewer RTSes to have a remotely accurate tooth to tail ratio - it is extraordinarily rare for the military to outnumber the civilian sector and if you are in that position unless victory is assured defeat is inevitable. AOE2 is conveniently open in its protocols and they demonstrate why independence from competitive tournaments is important to game making. From a business standpoint the best choice isn't to kowtow but to stay not responsible for it. Which is an ironic but tangible advantage for open software and giving up control. Even the unreasonable can see that any controversial actions are not your fault just like Lego can't stop you from building dongs and swastikas with their bricks. Personally I suspect MMOs would be harder to replace by "flavor" from how out of Zeitgeist they are after so many tried and failed to create WOW killers they stopped trying. Combined with Free To Play models sucking much of the staple player base away. Even longtime rivals or disliked MMO variants mourn the passing or decline of others. They have effectively become period pieces in many ways - not dead but in clear twilight.