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> “Doing business in China, it’s been easier to ignore the authoritarianism of the government because they were asking us to do things like remove a skeleton [f

by dvt 7y ago

> “Doing business in China, it’s been easier to ignore the authoritarianism of the government because they were asking us to do things like remove a skeleton [from a game],” he said. It looks like China learned nothing from the USSR (or from their own Great Leap Forward, for that matter). Escalation is not going to go their way. Hawkish members of the CCP are going to blow the whole thing up. This is much bigger than Activision-Blizzard and it's clear that Western companies are going to have to pick a side soon. There's a very salient conflict between Wall Street and the Classical Liberal underpinnings of our modern democracies. As it stands right now, this is going to get worse before it gets better. Is anyone worried about the HKD/USD peg falling?

munk-a 7y ago
I don't think it's Western companies as much as Western society putting pressure on all companies in general - and that'll bump up really hard against neo-liberalism and especially the libretarian segments of society. Ideally we'll see political support shifting away from neo-liberalism and toward more pro-democracy ideologies.
- dvt 7y ago
  Theoretically, at least, I think that the two are inextricably linked. I don't think you can have neo-liberalism (an actually free free market) unless your markets live in a democratic law-abiding state.
  - ep103 7y ago
    true, but I don't think you can have neo-liberalism, and do anything other than move away from a democratic law-abiding state, and towards a more authoritarian most-state-capitalist society
  - munk-a 7y ago
    The golden goose of neo-liberalism has always been local free-democracy and political protections while offshoring the uglier parts of the free-market economy to regions where the local political system can't resist the pressures being imposed by corporations. Within the west the idea is that corporations (mostly) play nice and respect democracy while exploiting that abroad - I think that may have lasted for a month or so and then folks realized they could double dip and have been eroding political institution for the benefit of corporations both locally and abroad.
  - dmix 7y ago
    Yep, almost all of the economically free countries are liberal democracies with strong independent courts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom There's a strong correlation between economic and social liberty, as well as with the average wealth, quality of life, and happiness of the general population. The fact Taiwan and HK are right next to China with ethnically and culturally similar people and were both way ahead of China economically and socially is no surprise. I often wonder how much more advanced the entire world would be if China didn't waste 50yrs trying their failed experiment and had skyrocketed to success like Japan, South Korea, HK, and Taiwan did long ago.
    - maximente 7y ago
      one of the reasons Japan/Taiwan/SK's economies are so strong is because - you guessed it - China is a major importer of their produced goods. without disposable income they have gained from something over the last few decades, they aren't importing massive amounts of goods from their neighbors.
      - dmix 7y ago
        Now imagine if China opened up their market earlier and had fair independent courts and political systems where they could attract other country's companies, talent, and money 10x easier without fear of it being stolen or squeezed out. They'd all be doing even better.
  - duxup 7y ago
    Yeah strong / independent courts and laws are absolutely required... for a lot of things really.
CamperBob2 7y ago
Wall Street has nothing to do with it. https://www.pcgamer.com/every-game-company-that-tencent-has-invested-in/ https://www.pcgamer.com/every-game-company-that-tencent-has-...
- dvt 7y ago
  I'm not sure if I agree. "Expansion in Chinese markets" seems to be a staple of quarterly earnings reports.
  - CamperBob2 7y ago
    Do you see companies that aren't partially owned by Chinese interests doing things like this? Admittedly I'm not fully up to speed on the situation, but I doubt Blizzard would have taken this action without considering Tencent's influence.
    - tomnipotent 7y ago
      > without considering Tencent's influence At 5% ownership, Tencent doesn't have the muscle to force Blizzard to do anything it wouldn't have already done of its own volition.
      - oarsinsync 7y ago
        Activist investors often have less than 10% stakes in the companies they’re trying to institute changes in. 5% is not a meaningless amount to hold.
        tomnipotent 7y ago
        I hadn't thought about the parallel to activist investors, that's a very good point. I've seen the hell raised by folks like Carl Icahn...
        morningseagulls 7y ago
        Agreed, but Epic Games, which is 40% owned by Tencent, is now claiming it won't do what Blizzard did: https://www.insider.com/epic-unlike-blizzard-wont-ban-players-talking-politics-hong-kong-2019-10 https://www.insider.com/epic-unlike-blizzard-wont-ban-player...
jorblumesea 7y ago
> China learned nothing from the USSR On the contrary, they learned that USSR's self imposed isolation was fundamentally flawed and largely stagnated the Soviet economy. It also put them behind the Western world in terms of R&D. China is attempting to put those lessons to use and attempting to have an "Western opened" totalitarian regime. So far, it seems to be working. Accepting Western capital and tech, stealing everything they can find, and suppressing anything that's a threat to their system while requesting their system become normalized. Whereas we used to shut out the Soviet Union, we welcome China. +1 on taking the side, it's hard to see China as anything less than hostile to Western democracy.
- jdashg 7y ago
  I believe it's also a play similar to Embrace Extend Extinguish: - Embrace investment globally - Extend markets and improve industries - Exert political pressure in exchange for access to now-crucial markets/industries
tossAfterUsing 7y ago
> Is anyone worried about the HKD/USD peg falling? I just hope it fails before China fully takes over HK's banks
mortenjorck 7y ago
> This is much bigger than Activision-Blizzard and it's clear that Western companies are going to have to pick a side soon. I would imagine there are thousands of businesses with varying degrees of exposure to the Chinese market whose executives are on pins and needles right now, desperately hoping no circumstance arises that will require them to publicly take a side on this issue. Businesses with less exposure or fewer ambitions in China might have a lower barrier to standing firm if pushed, but those with the most to lose in the Chinese market are staring down a very real, very imminent choice between taking a major hit to either their revenues or their ethical credibility.

by dvt 7y ago

munk-a 7y ago

I don't think it's Western companies as much as Western society putting pressure on all companies in general - and that'll bump up really hard against neo-liberalism and especially the libretarian segments of society. Ideally we'll see political support shifting away from neo-liberalism and toward more pro-democracy ideologies.

dvt 7y ago
Theoretically, at least, I think that the two are inextricably linked. I don't think you can have neo-liberalism (an actually free free market) unless your markets live in a democratic law-abiding state.
- ep103 7y ago
  true, but I don't think you can have neo-liberalism, and do anything other than move away from a democratic law-abiding state, and towards a more authoritarian most-state-capitalist society
- munk-a 7y ago
  The golden goose of neo-liberalism has always been local free-democracy and political protections while offshoring the uglier parts of the free-market economy to regions where the local political system can't resist the pressures being imposed by corporations. Within the west the idea is that corporations (mostly) play nice and respect democracy while exploiting that abroad - I think that may have lasted for a month or so and then folks realized they could double dip and have been eroding political institution for the benefit of corporations both locally and abroad.
- dmix 7y ago
  Yep, almost all of the economically free countries are liberal democracies with strong independent courts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom There's a strong correlation between economic and social liberty, as well as with the average wealth, quality of life, and happiness of the general population. The fact Taiwan and HK are right next to China with ethnically and culturally similar people and were both way ahead of China economically and socially is no surprise. I often wonder how much more advanced the entire world would be if China didn't waste 50yrs trying their failed experiment and had skyrocketed to success like Japan, South Korea, HK, and Taiwan did long ago.
  - maximente 7y ago
    one of the reasons Japan/Taiwan/SK's economies are so strong is because - you guessed it - China is a major importer of their produced goods. without disposable income they have gained from something over the last few decades, they aren't importing massive amounts of goods from their neighbors.
    - dmix 7y ago
      Now imagine if China opened up their market earlier and had fair independent courts and political systems where they could attract other country's companies, talent, and money 10x easier without fear of it being stolen or squeezed out. They'd all be doing even better.
- duxup 7y ago
  Yeah strong / independent courts and laws are absolutely required... for a lot of things really.

CamperBob2 7y ago

Wall Street has nothing to do with it. https://www.pcgamer.com/every-game-company-that-tencent-has-invested-in/ https://www.pcgamer.com/every-game-company-that-tencent-has-...

dvt 7y ago
I'm not sure if I agree. "Expansion in Chinese markets" seems to be a staple of quarterly earnings reports.
- CamperBob2 7y ago
  Do you see companies that aren't partially owned by Chinese interests doing things like this? Admittedly I'm not fully up to speed on the situation, but I doubt Blizzard would have taken this action without considering Tencent's influence.
  - tomnipotent 7y ago
    > without considering Tencent's influence At 5% ownership, Tencent doesn't have the muscle to force Blizzard to do anything it wouldn't have already done of its own volition.
    - oarsinsync 7y ago
      Activist investors often have less than 10% stakes in the companies they’re trying to institute changes in. 5% is not a meaningless amount to hold.
      - tomnipotent 7y ago
        I hadn't thought about the parallel to activist investors, that's a very good point. I've seen the hell raised by folks like Carl Icahn...
      - morningseagulls 7y ago
        Agreed, but Epic Games, which is 40% owned by Tencent, is now claiming it won't do what Blizzard did: https://www.insider.com/epic-unlike-blizzard-wont-ban-players-talking-politics-hong-kong-2019-10 https://www.insider.com/epic-unlike-blizzard-wont-ban-player...

jorblumesea 7y ago

> China learned nothing from the USSR On the contrary, they learned that USSR's self imposed isolation was fundamentally flawed and largely stagnated the Soviet economy. It also put them behind the Western world in terms of R&D. China is attempting to put those lessons to use and attempting to have an "Western opened" totalitarian regime. So far, it seems to be working. Accepting Western capital and tech, stealing everything they can find, and suppressing anything that's a threat to their system while requesting their system become normalized. Whereas we used to shut out the Soviet Union, we welcome China. +1 on taking the side, it's hard to see China as anything less than hostile to Western democracy.

jdashg 7y ago
I believe it's also a play similar to Embrace Extend Extinguish: - Embrace investment globally - Extend markets and improve industries - Exert political pressure in exchange for access to now-crucial markets/industries

tossAfterUsing 7y ago

> Is anyone worried about the HKD/USD peg falling? I just hope it fails before China fully takes over HK's banks

mortenjorck 7y ago

> This is much bigger than Activision-Blizzard and it's clear that Western companies are going to have to pick a side soon. I would imagine there are thousands of businesses with varying degrees of exposure to the Chinese market whose executives are on pins and needles right now, desperately hoping no circumstance arises that will require them to publicly take a side on this issue. Businesses with less exposure or fewer ambitions in China might have a lower barrier to standing firm if pushed, but those with the most to lose in the Chinese market are staring down a very real, very imminent choice between taking a major hit to either their revenues or their ethical credibility.