4 ms·

Are you kidding? US foreign policy regularly ignores "values" for other interests. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Communiqu%C3%A9s https://en.wikipedia.or

Are you kidding? US foreign policy regularly ignores "values" for other interests. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Communiqu%C3%A9s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Communiqu%C3%A9s

jerf 7y ago
That's begging the question in an important sense though; what is under discussion is precisely a history of ignoring "values" for our other interests in China, the result that has created which did not match the stated goal of the previous policy, and the question of whether we should continue with that previous policy. It would be a particularly perverse deployment of "whataboutism" if one argues that honoring our values over profit is not something we should do now, because whatabout the fact up until quite recently we weren't?
- Despegar 7y ago
  Framing it in terms of moral leadership is silly when the US regularly doesn't give a shit about it. See: Saudi Arabia and Israel
  - jerf 7y ago
    Here we are, giving a shit about it. Should we stop?
    - coldtea 7y ago
      No, but they should admit that they're still not giving a shit, the right thing (assuming this is it) just happened to coincide with their interests for a chance...
      - jerf 7y ago
        "They" maybe should. This is not a change of position for me. I'm 40; I remember the tail end of the Cold War, and for me, this is merely China unmasking what I always knew was there, not some amazing revelation. This is Communism. It has not changed in 50 years, right up to and including holding a pretty mask over its face for its Western audiences ready and eager to believe in it. The only difference is the world shrank, and it's harder for the mask to work when you're standing closer to it.
  - nugget 7y ago
    There's at least been (and continues to be) public and spirited debate about events in Saudi Arabia and Israel, of a kind that China seems incapable of tolerating. No country is perfect, but when you start silencing or censoring political dissent, you head down a very dark road.
- ianleeclark 7y ago
  > It would be a particularly perverse deployment of "whataboutism" if one argues that honoring our values over profit is not something we should do now, because whatabout the fact up until quite recently we weren't? You don't even have to go until "quite recently," we can demonstratively saying we're--today, tomorrow, and for the foreseeable future-- aiding the yemeni genocide. "Whataboutism," is a complete spook that, oddly enough, details conversations because OP is likely not pointing out that we should ignore our values, but rather that the USA has no values to honor in the first place.
staticautomatic 7y ago
True, but the U.S. has hardly any official values.

Are you kidding? US foreign policy regularly ignores "values" for other interests. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Communiqu%C3%A9s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Communiqu%C3%A9s

jerf 7y ago

That's begging the question in an important sense though; what is under discussion is precisely a history of ignoring "values" for our other interests in China, the result that has created which did not match the stated goal of the previous policy, and the question of whether we should continue with that previous policy. It would be a particularly perverse deployment of "whataboutism" if one argues that honoring our values over profit is not something we should do now, because whatabout the fact up until quite recently we weren't?

Despegar 7y ago
Framing it in terms of moral leadership is silly when the US regularly doesn't give a shit about it. See: Saudi Arabia and Israel
- jerf 7y ago
  Here we are, giving a shit about it. Should we stop?
  - coldtea 7y ago
    No, but they should admit that they're still not giving a shit, the right thing (assuming this is it) just happened to coincide with their interests for a chance...
    - jerf 7y ago
      "They" maybe should. This is not a change of position for me. I'm 40; I remember the tail end of the Cold War, and for me, this is merely China unmasking what I always knew was there, not some amazing revelation. This is Communism. It has not changed in 50 years, right up to and including holding a pretty mask over its face for its Western audiences ready and eager to believe in it. The only difference is the world shrank, and it's harder for the mask to work when you're standing closer to it.
- nugget 7y ago
  There's at least been (and continues to be) public and spirited debate about events in Saudi Arabia and Israel, of a kind that China seems incapable of tolerating. No country is perfect, but when you start silencing or censoring political dissent, you head down a very dark road.
ianleeclark 7y ago
> It would be a particularly perverse deployment of "whataboutism" if one argues that honoring our values over profit is not something we should do now, because whatabout the fact up until quite recently we weren't? You don't even have to go until "quite recently," we can demonstratively saying we're--today, tomorrow, and for the foreseeable future-- aiding the yemeni genocide. "Whataboutism," is a complete spook that, oddly enough, details conversations because OP is likely not pointing out that we should ignore our values, but rather that the USA has no values to honor in the first place.

staticautomatic 7y ago

True, but the U.S. has hardly any official values.