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I strongly disagree with the shoehorning of the term "privilege" into basically every situation that involves any level of inequality, but I think the idea is v

I strongly disagree with the shoehorning of the term "privilege" into basically every situation that involves any level of inequality, but I think the idea is vaguely sound. I don't use Facebook, or LinkedIn, or whatever else. I can do that because: a) I have enough personal wealth that I am comfortable with working for reasons other than money. This is distinct from simply being able to afford it at a minimal level. b) I have a level of self confidence, hard won, that allows me to stand up to people and say no. This might mean, for example, interrupting a conversation at a bureaucratic firm about how "all X are required to do Y"; or just not doing it; if I think it's wrong. I don't agree with calling it privilege - it's more like a personality trait, or perhaps even a talent or skill, because it's developed rather than bestowed. But not everyone is in that sort of situation. A checkout worker, for the most part, just does what the boss says. Regardless of the actual personal power they have, that's just "how it works" out in the real world. Society is not full of hyper individualistic people. If it were, it would look radically different, if it even functioned.

laurex 7y ago
To me there's an apt comparison between data-sucking, attention-sucking technology and sugar. It's healthy to minimise consumption of them, and harder to do when your decision-making brain reserves are taxed by anxiety, social pressure, and lack of good available alternatives.
jodrellblank 7y ago
You think being wealthy enough to not need to work, isn’t a privilege, it’s a talent or personality trait??? Edit for the -1 downvote: being able to interrupt a meeting to refuse to do some work, because you have enough personal resources that the negative social, financial or reputation consequences won't harm you, is "A special advantage, immunity, permission, or benefit granted to or enjoyed by an individual". It is a privilege, held by very few people.
- esotericn 7y ago
  It's not a binary thing. Being born in a developed country in a relatively stable home environment is a privilege. Having the above as a baseline, and being born with a particular set of talents and personality can propel a person far higher than that. I dislike the use of the term 'privilege' when used in the context of any form of success because it is, as you point out, tautological.
  - jodrellblank 7y ago
    That you dislike it, doesn't make it inaccurate - it feels a bit like you're saying "it's unfair to call me privileged - I earned it". But regardless of how it came about, it describes you in certain situations, and enables you to do things others cannot. People who need their job and have few other options are not necessarily docile and compliant by personality, as you seem to be saying; you can be outspoken and principled by personality /and/ have the privilege to be able to use that, where others can be outspoken and principled by personality but must appear docile and compliant to avoid consequences which you can ignore. Were you instead running for public office, you would need to avoid taking unpopular positions or you would be out of the running. You couldn't ignore the consequence of people not voting for you, compared to an unelected positions who don't have to care about popularity. It's not tautological to say that success ~= privilege, but that is where the idea of "fuck you money" comes from - it's an amount of money which lets anyone do the things you attribute to your talent and personality. If anyone can buy it, how much personality or talent can it involve? And if it's situation dependent - you might not do the same things if working behind a Top Secret classification, or conscripted into the military, or if dependent on your public image - again how much can it be "success"?
    - esotericn 7y ago
      Oh, I'm super privileged. Loadsamoney white male Oxford graduate. I don't quite have all the boxes ticked - I had a poor upbringing (though in a wealthy country). That said - I don't think it's even meaningful to discuss whether someone earned their place in life. Personally I pretty much figure I was born with a reasonably "useful" organization of neurons or whatever and so lo and behold, I get rewards whilst random other people suffer. Nature is a bitch. But I digress. What I'm trying to get at, I think, is that the personality traits govern what you actually end up doing in life, right. One does not simply "run for public office". You make an active choice to do that - at least if you believe in free will anyway - and so you've intentionally limited your capacity to stand out of line. I mean, in some sense, you could even say that running for public office is precisely the opposite of that. You're intentionally choosing to fall in line with a large portion of society - you're going to be their representative! I could expand on this more (your other examples are fairly similar - top secret classification? like that just happens?), but really what I'm trying to get at is - the level of privilege required in order to stand for what you believe in really depends on what you want to do. You probably can't simultaneously be an oil executive and a climate protestor. No amount of money will change that. But anyone - anyone can stand up for what they believe in. There might be sacrifice. You allude to it in 'avoid consequences which you can ignore'. Some people - a _lot_ of people - are loss averse to the extent that they just won't do anything interesting. It's income / career / whatever maximization to the end. I've been a stubborn prick since as far back as I can remember. Before the money. It's my defining characteristic - for good and bad.

laurex 7y ago

To me there's an apt comparison between data-sucking, attention-sucking technology and sugar. It's healthy to minimise consumption of them, and harder to do when your decision-making brain reserves are taxed by anxiety, social pressure, and lack of good available alternatives.

jodrellblank 7y ago

You think being wealthy enough to not need to work, isn’t a privilege, it’s a talent or personality trait??? Edit for the -1 downvote: being able to interrupt a meeting to refuse to do some work, because you have enough personal resources that the negative social, financial or reputation consequences won't harm you, is "A special advantage, immunity, permission, or benefit granted to or enjoyed by an individual". It is a privilege, held by very few people.

esotericn 7y ago
It's not a binary thing. Being born in a developed country in a relatively stable home environment is a privilege. Having the above as a baseline, and being born with a particular set of talents and personality can propel a person far higher than that. I dislike the use of the term 'privilege' when used in the context of any form of success because it is, as you point out, tautological.
- jodrellblank 7y ago
  That you dislike it, doesn't make it inaccurate - it feels a bit like you're saying "it's unfair to call me privileged - I earned it". But regardless of how it came about, it describes you in certain situations, and enables you to do things others cannot. People who need their job and have few other options are not necessarily docile and compliant by personality, as you seem to be saying; you can be outspoken and principled by personality /and/ have the privilege to be able to use that, where others can be outspoken and principled by personality but must appear docile and compliant to avoid consequences which you can ignore. Were you instead running for public office, you would need to avoid taking unpopular positions or you would be out of the running. You couldn't ignore the consequence of people not voting for you, compared to an unelected positions who don't have to care about popularity. It's not tautological to say that success ~= privilege, but that is where the idea of "fuck you money" comes from - it's an amount of money which lets anyone do the things you attribute to your talent and personality. If anyone can buy it, how much personality or talent can it involve? And if it's situation dependent - you might not do the same things if working behind a Top Secret classification, or conscripted into the military, or if dependent on your public image - again how much can it be "success"?
  - esotericn 7y ago
    Oh, I'm super privileged. Loadsamoney white male Oxford graduate. I don't quite have all the boxes ticked - I had a poor upbringing (though in a wealthy country). That said - I don't think it's even meaningful to discuss whether someone earned their place in life. Personally I pretty much figure I was born with a reasonably "useful" organization of neurons or whatever and so lo and behold, I get rewards whilst random other people suffer. Nature is a bitch. But I digress. What I'm trying to get at, I think, is that the personality traits govern what you actually end up doing in life, right. One does not simply "run for public office". You make an active choice to do that - at least if you believe in free will anyway - and so you've intentionally limited your capacity to stand out of line. I mean, in some sense, you could even say that running for public office is precisely the opposite of that. You're intentionally choosing to fall in line with a large portion of society - you're going to be their representative! I could expand on this more (your other examples are fairly similar - top secret classification? like that just happens?), but really what I'm trying to get at is - the level of privilege required in order to stand for what you believe in really depends on what you want to do. You probably can't simultaneously be an oil executive and a climate protestor. No amount of money will change that. But anyone - anyone can stand up for what they believe in. There might be sacrifice. You allude to it in 'avoid consequences which you can ignore'. Some people - a _lot_ of people - are loss averse to the extent that they just won't do anything interesting. It's income / career / whatever maximization to the end. I've been a stubborn prick since as far back as I can remember. Before the money. It's my defining characteristic - for good and bad.