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Because if people don't push back against it, what we get is yet another incarnation of the witch trials. Some people evidently want that, because they're "not

Because if people don't push back against it, what we get is yet another incarnation of the witch trials. Some people evidently want that, because they're "not a witch" themselves. It's really awful that in some/many cases, accusations of rape or sexual assault or sexual harassment or creepiness end up reducing to one person's word against another, when there's no good objective evidence either way. You should doubt everyone. You should doubt the accuser. You should doubt the alleged harasser's claim of innocence. Without evidence, you can't adjudicate it, and unless it's a matter of rape or sexual assault, the compulsion to adjudicate it in the absence of evidence is unhealthy[1]. What you can do is try to engineer the environment or counsel the people so the alleged behavior by the accused or negative perception by the accuser is less likely to occur; most obviously, by separating them and ensuring they rarely/never have to interact. If you can't keep the two people from communicating or interacting, and you have to fire one, and that one should be the accused, that is precisely a witch trial, but without a declaration of being a witch. The accused might not be a witch, but we're going to burn them anyway, because the social fabric depends on it! And of course, criticizing witch trials can make you a witch, because there's evil in the world and therefore the witch trials must go forward! To do nothing is to enable witches, and who would want to do that except a witch? "Cui bono?" [1] And in serious cases, you can try to take it to court, but it'll fairly likely end up unsatisfactorily for the accuser unless they're particularly persuasive or the defendant is obviously creepy or there's some other evidence. Even a string of accusers, although it means something, is not necessarily good evidence. Again, see the witch trials.

hackerbrother 7y ago
Yes, and if we don't push back against sexual harassment, what we get is yet another... now
kelnos 7y ago
I consider dealing with workplace accusations more like dealing with a lawsuit, rather than dealing with a criminal case. Studies bear out that false accusations of sexual misconduct are exceedingly rare. If you go just by the odds, the likelihood is that when someone accuses someone of misconduct, it probably happened. That doesn't mean you just accept an accusation at face value, but it does hopefully set the stage for you to be sympathetic, and committed to be thorough and to actually listen to what the accuser is saying. You of course do an investigation. You talk to the involved parties. You talk to witnesses, if there are any. Some of these witnesses may not have been present for any of the alleged offenses, but might speak to the involved parties' character. Does the accused act creepy around other people? Is the accuser constantly making up false stories about people? If it does boil down to taking one person's word against the other, then I don't think the default should be to just separate the people and hope nothing happens again. Just as in a civil law case, part of the determination (both the direction of the judgment itself, as well as the magnitude of any penalties) is based on who is more persuasive about any available evidence, not strictly about whether the evidence alone is more or less damning. It's not cut and dried. It's not clear. It's fuzzy and muddy. That's unfortunate, but happens to be the reality of dealing with humans.
deanCommie 7y ago
First they came for the rapists, and I didn't say anything, because I wasn't a rapist. Then they came for the sexual harassers, and I didn't say anything, because I wasn't a sexual harasser. Then they came for the... Wait, what? That's it? They just wanted to root out the rapist and sexual harassers, and that's it? I can still live my life without worry as long as I'm not one of those? But okay, maybe your concern is being falsely accused of these things. The incidence rate of false accusations is low to the point of not being relevant to any discussion of social or cultural norms or policy. Sexual assault is death from drunk driving. False sexual assault accusation is being hit in the head by a milkshake thrown from a moving vehicle.

hackerbrother 7y ago

Yes, and if we don't push back against sexual harassment, what we get is yet another... now

kelnos 7y ago

I consider dealing with workplace accusations more like dealing with a lawsuit, rather than dealing with a criminal case. Studies bear out that false accusations of sexual misconduct are exceedingly rare. If you go just by the odds, the likelihood is that when someone accuses someone of misconduct, it probably happened. That doesn't mean you just accept an accusation at face value, but it does hopefully set the stage for you to be sympathetic, and committed to be thorough and to actually listen to what the accuser is saying. You of course do an investigation. You talk to the involved parties. You talk to witnesses, if there are any. Some of these witnesses may not have been present for any of the alleged offenses, but might speak to the involved parties' character. Does the accused act creepy around other people? Is the accuser constantly making up false stories about people? If it does boil down to taking one person's word against the other, then I don't think the default should be to just separate the people and hope nothing happens again. Just as in a civil law case, part of the determination (both the direction of the judgment itself, as well as the magnitude of any penalties) is based on who is more persuasive about any available evidence, not strictly about whether the evidence alone is more or less damning. It's not cut and dried. It's not clear. It's fuzzy and muddy. That's unfortunate, but happens to be the reality of dealing with humans.

deanCommie 7y ago

First they came for the rapists, and I didn't say anything, because I wasn't a rapist. Then they came for the sexual harassers, and I didn't say anything, because I wasn't a sexual harasser. Then they came for the... Wait, what? That's it? They just wanted to root out the rapist and sexual harassers, and that's it? I can still live my life without worry as long as I'm not one of those? But okay, maybe your concern is being falsely accused of these things. The incidence rate of false accusations is low to the point of not being relevant to any discussion of social or cultural norms or policy. Sexual assault is death from drunk driving. False sexual assault accusation is being hit in the head by a milkshake thrown from a moving vehicle.