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Kind of funny that this is written by Google, responsible for some of the strangest UX decisions. Just look at Gmail. In the single email view there are 5 diffe

by _0o6v 7y ago

Kind of funny that this is written by Google, responsible for some of the strangest UX decisions. Just look at Gmail. In the single email view there are 5 different toolbars, at different levels of hierarchy. Why is forward at one level, but archive at another? Why are there two sets of drop down menus? Maps is another disaster. Watching my relatively non-technical partner attempt to navigate Maps is quite eye-opening - different panes sliding in and out, Navigation, Places and Maps often conceptually colliding with each other leading to all sorts of confusion (unless you're very familiar with the Google suite of products).

dmix 7y ago
The adwords management app might be one of the worst designed pieces of business software I've ever used. Google Analytics was also full of strange decisions and unnecessary complexity. I guess they don't get the good designers on their B2B stuff either. If I was in charge of the gmail team my first goal would be making it faster. It always feels clunky when you need to open gmail.
- mook 7y ago
  > Google Analytics was also full of strange decisions and unnecessary complexity. Presumably, Google Analytics would be big on dogfooding… which is probably a sign that analytics-driven development isn't quite as useful as it's been touted to be. It's probably got great engagement metrics though!
  - anoncake 7y ago
    A sign and possibly a reason.
ben_jones 7y ago
> After analyzing the user engagement statistics of apps that switched from semi-hidden navigation within hamburger menus to more visible bottom navigation bars, and apps that switched from more exposed to semi-hidden navigation, Wroblewski saw a trend. “Navigation is the manifestation of what is possible in an app and when people can’t see what’s possible, they likely won’t know what they can/should do in that app,” he told me in an interview about this idea. Increasing visibility boosts usage. They have this highly data-driven process which optimizes for usage and engagement . The problem is I don't wake up in the morning and go "gee I really want to up my engagement with google maps today". The ideal information retrieval app consists of me retrieving information and closing it. This is antithetical to Google's monetization model, and thus Google Consumer design is not for my benefit. That said each Google Product is like a different company and they do do good work here and there. Specifically the Google Cloud Console has improved tremendously over the years (no doubt due to massive investment). Is it perfect? Hell no. But I prefer it to AWS and Azure tremendously.
- reitanqild 7y ago
  > They have this highly data-driven process which optimizes for usage and engagement . The problem is I don't wake up in the morning and go "gee I really want to up my engagement with google maps today". Might explain parts of my experience with Android ;-)
- manigandham 7y ago
  Gmail and the consumer apps seem to be too data-driven to the point where the numbers are a self-fulling prophecy. Of course engagement goes up when confusion and bloat are added and users struggle to get things done. You're right about the GCP console which is well designed (although still slower to load than AWS or Azure). Clearly they have different metrics there.
  - AlphaSite 7y ago
    Conversely, I’ve found the GCP console extremely confusing to navigate.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
- naasking 7y ago
  > They have this highly data-driven process which optimizes for usage and engagement. [...] The ideal information retrieval app consists of me retrieving information and closing it. Seriously, having to hunt for the features I actually need would seem to increase usage and engagement. Is that really the metric employed?
krm01 7y ago
In all fairness, our UX/UI design studio [1] has worked with engineering teams of big companies. Be it Google engineers or others. The problem, almost always, is that the designers try to design simple UX logic - Engineers try to implement that logic - but someone higher up urges those engineers to add ABC and XYZ. All resulting in an unclear direction, where the engineering teams usually lean towards their boss' opinion. And, unintentionally, remove any logic that was initially part of the design process. To design better products, there should be a better balance between designers & engineers. Adding one guy to your team to 'make this crappy looking prototype pop' isn't going to be very helpful for your users. [1] http://fairpixels.pro http://fairpixels.pro
- mac_was 7y ago
  Haha! It is not us it is the engineering team blaming culture
- alxlaz 7y ago
  > All resulting in an unclear direction, where the engineering teams usually lean towards their boss' opinion. What other opinion are they supposed to "lean towards"? Their boss' opinion is the only one that actually carries any sort of authority -- you implement it whether you agree with it or not.
- JamesSchriver 7y ago
  I think you are making a mistake in your prescription. From my perspective it is not the engineers that need to work closer with the designers, but rather the designers that need to work closer with the managers with engineer support. It's a critical mistake I see all over the place, and it's a rather silly one when you think about it. As you described, the boss can bring the whole thing into disharmony, so why, for better or worse, would you not want to bring that variable into the process loop as closely as possible. I get it, it's not something many want to do and some may even loathe their bosses mucking around and screwing things up, but reality is that if you don't adapt to the process it will guarantee to screw your process up; so just adapt to reality and not let the stubbornness sabotage things.
- hinkley 7y ago
alberth 7y ago
Then when Gmail lead designer leaves Google, you get this simplified / more usable Gmail UI design by them. https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/simplify-gmail/pbmlfaiicoikhdbjagjbglnbfcbcojpj/ https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/simplify-gmail/pbm...
- JamesSchriver 7y ago
  I am not quite sure just from cursory review, but I find that just ripping things out is rarely the answer to poor design. I get it, it's supposed to be a focus view, but dumbing down tools is not an alternative to good design.
- Groxx 7y ago
  Which looks like more layers of interaction hidden behind icons, and less text, basically the opposite of what the main article is recommending.
catchmeifyoucan 7y ago
Was going to say the same. Similar experience with using Google Docs. Literally cannot figure out how to go to back to the document folder. I moved to Heap Analytics because the Google Analytics experience was so confusing and nested - I'm much happier now.
Enginerrrd 7y ago
Not only that, but they've way over-simplified their UI in other areas where they actually sell services to the point where I can't even find basic setting menus because they've been eliminated from the main page and it takes me 10+ minutes as a highly technical user to try to find a simple thing like current billing prices or invoice records. Just awful.
ahuth 7y ago
You're not wrong. Some of Google's products do have UX problems. But that doesn't mean that the author's thoughts on this are wrong.
boomlinde 7y ago
This is especially funny given that the "basic HTML view" is clear and relatively clutter free. I find it superior in almost every way, yet it's posed as the lesser alternative you have to cope with if you don't have JS or a fast connection.
niknetniko 7y ago
While I agree about Google Maps, I'm not so sure about Gmail. Take your example: - Forward is in the lowest toolbar in the hierarchy, since it applies to a single e-mail. - Archive is in the top toolbar in the hierarchy, since it applies to a whole conversation. Does this mean there are no improvements possible? Of course not, but I think the UI choices in Gmail are mostly sensible.
flukus 7y ago
Maps isn't about maps anymore, it's a location database that happens to show a map sometimes. If you want an actual map with useful map features like showing street names then OSM is a far better product. I don't get me started on how gmail has been filtering the content of emails. I wonder how many services have been spam blocked because google decided to hide the unsubscribe links.

by _0o6v 7y ago

dmix 7y ago

The adwords management app might be one of the worst designed pieces of business software I've ever used. Google Analytics was also full of strange decisions and unnecessary complexity. I guess they don't get the good designers on their B2B stuff either. If I was in charge of the gmail team my first goal would be making it faster. It always feels clunky when you need to open gmail.

mook 7y ago
> Google Analytics was also full of strange decisions and unnecessary complexity. Presumably, Google Analytics would be big on dogfooding… which is probably a sign that analytics-driven development isn't quite as useful as it's been touted to be. It's probably got great engagement metrics though!
- anoncake 7y ago
  A sign and possibly a reason.

ben_jones 7y ago

> After analyzing the user engagement statistics of apps that switched from semi-hidden navigation within hamburger menus to more visible bottom navigation bars, and apps that switched from more exposed to semi-hidden navigation, Wroblewski saw a trend. “Navigation is the manifestation of what is possible in an app and when people can’t see what’s possible, they likely won’t know what they can/should do in that app,” he told me in an interview about this idea. Increasing visibility boosts usage. They have this highly data-driven process which optimizes for usage and engagement . The problem is I don't wake up in the morning and go "gee I really want to up my engagement with google maps today". The ideal information retrieval app consists of me retrieving information and closing it. This is antithetical to Google's monetization model, and thus Google Consumer design is not for my benefit. That said each Google Product is like a different company and they do do good work here and there. Specifically the Google Cloud Console has improved tremendously over the years (no doubt due to massive investment). Is it perfect? Hell no. But I prefer it to AWS and Azure tremendously.

reitanqild 7y ago
> They have this highly data-driven process which optimizes for usage and engagement . The problem is I don't wake up in the morning and go "gee I really want to up my engagement with google maps today". Might explain parts of my experience with Android ;-)
manigandham 7y ago
Gmail and the consumer apps seem to be too data-driven to the point where the numbers are a self-fulling prophecy. Of course engagement goes up when confusion and bloat are added and users struggle to get things done. You're right about the GCP console which is well designed (although still slower to load than AWS or Azure). Clearly they have different metrics there.
- AlphaSite 7y ago
  Conversely, I’ve found the GCP console extremely confusing to navigate.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
naasking 7y ago
> They have this highly data-driven process which optimizes for usage and engagement. [...] The ideal information retrieval app consists of me retrieving information and closing it. Seriously, having to hunt for the features I actually need would seem to increase usage and engagement. Is that really the metric employed?

krm01 7y ago

In all fairness, our UX/UI design studio [1] has worked with engineering teams of big companies. Be it Google engineers or others. The problem, almost always, is that the designers try to design simple UX logic - Engineers try to implement that logic - but someone higher up urges those engineers to add ABC and XYZ. All resulting in an unclear direction, where the engineering teams usually lean towards their boss' opinion. And, unintentionally, remove any logic that was initially part of the design process. To design better products, there should be a better balance between designers & engineers. Adding one guy to your team to 'make this crappy looking prototype pop' isn't going to be very helpful for your users. [1] http://fairpixels.pro http://fairpixels.pro

mac_was 7y ago
Haha! It is not us it is the engineering team blaming culture
alxlaz 7y ago
> All resulting in an unclear direction, where the engineering teams usually lean towards their boss' opinion. What other opinion are they supposed to "lean towards"? Their boss' opinion is the only one that actually carries any sort of authority -- you implement it whether you agree with it or not.
JamesSchriver 7y ago
I think you are making a mistake in your prescription. From my perspective it is not the engineers that need to work closer with the designers, but rather the designers that need to work closer with the managers with engineer support. It's a critical mistake I see all over the place, and it's a rather silly one when you think about it. As you described, the boss can bring the whole thing into disharmony, so why, for better or worse, would you not want to bring that variable into the process loop as closely as possible. I get it, it's not something many want to do and some may even loathe their bosses mucking around and screwing things up, but reality is that if you don't adapt to the process it will guarantee to screw your process up; so just adapt to reality and not let the stubbornness sabotage things.
hinkley 7y ago

alberth 7y ago

Then when Gmail lead designer leaves Google, you get this simplified / more usable Gmail UI design by them. https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/simplify-gmail/pbmlfaiicoikhdbjagjbglnbfcbcojpj/ https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/simplify-gmail/pbm...

JamesSchriver 7y ago
I am not quite sure just from cursory review, but I find that just ripping things out is rarely the answer to poor design. I get it, it's supposed to be a focus view, but dumbing down tools is not an alternative to good design.
Groxx 7y ago
Which looks like more layers of interaction hidden behind icons, and less text, basically the opposite of what the main article is recommending.

catchmeifyoucan 7y ago

Was going to say the same. Similar experience with using Google Docs. Literally cannot figure out how to go to back to the document folder. I moved to Heap Analytics because the Google Analytics experience was so confusing and nested - I'm much happier now.

Enginerrrd 7y ago

Not only that, but they've way over-simplified their UI in other areas where they actually sell services to the point where I can't even find basic setting menus because they've been eliminated from the main page and it takes me 10+ minutes as a highly technical user to try to find a simple thing like current billing prices or invoice records. Just awful.

ahuth 7y ago

You're not wrong. Some of Google's products do have UX problems. But that doesn't mean that the author's thoughts on this are wrong.

boomlinde 7y ago

This is especially funny given that the "basic HTML view" is clear and relatively clutter free. I find it superior in almost every way, yet it's posed as the lesser alternative you have to cope with if you don't have JS or a fast connection.

niknetniko 7y ago

While I agree about Google Maps, I'm not so sure about Gmail. Take your example: - Forward is in the lowest toolbar in the hierarchy, since it applies to a single e-mail. - Archive is in the top toolbar in the hierarchy, since it applies to a whole conversation. Does this mean there are no improvements possible? Of course not, but I think the UI choices in Gmail are mostly sensible.

flukus 7y ago

Maps isn't about maps anymore, it's a location database that happens to show a map sometimes. If you want an actual map with useful map features like showing street names then OSM is a far better product. I don't get me started on how gmail has been filtering the content of emails. I wonder how many services have been spam blocked because google decided to hide the unsubscribe links.