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GitHub and US Government Developers
- xibalba 7y agoTldr: we're not going to sever ties with ICE.
- derision 7y agoTldr: we're not going to sever ties with ICE, because we recognize it could be used in projects that support policies we both agree and disagree with, such as human trafficking, child exploitation, terrorism and transnational crime, gang violence, money laundering, intellectual property theft, and cybercrime.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- itronitron 7y agopoorly titled Press Release, GitHub isn't making any friends by lumping all US Gov developers into the ICE bucket
- airstrike 7y agoThey are simply hedging for the future by signaling that future decisions regarding other US Government developers will likely be consistent with this one, but without making that specific claim so overtly.
- vesche 7y agoI agree. Why is the title targeted at all US Government developers? I feel like this press release is also trying to create political drama where none is needed. GitHub is used by good people and bad people, just like anything is. I'm a long time GitHub user, but this press release is disappointing.
- forgottenpass 7y ago>Why is the title targeted at all US Government developers? As dumb as you might think people in government are, they're not so dumb as to believe a decision could be made in a way that only applies to ICE. They can see the abstract case at hand is a disagreement with federal policy. ICE was created by the federal government and tasked with (among other things) carrying out a controversial policy. Even if GitHub didn't vocalize it explicitly -- or went further and stated that the decision applied only to ICE -- every federal agency is still listening to see if their business relationship with github will be shaped by public opinion towards the job the legislature tells them to do.
- jna_sh 7y agoThis internal letter was leaked last night on Twitter, via Fight for the Future. It seems putting it on the official GitHub blog is a response to that leak: https://twitter.com/evan_greer/status/1181745056698572802 https://twitter.com/evan_greer/status/1181745056698572802
- elliekelly 7y agoPutting it on the official GitHub blog seems to violate GitHub's Privacy Policy. As much as I support GitHub's approach to dealing with ICE (and as much as I despise ICE) I have a problem with a company making the details of a customer's private transaction public. It's the government, and the government should be open and transparent, so that makes it a little easier to swallow but I still don't feel it's appropriate for GitHub to comment on a specific customer's services/total contract value.
- TrickyRick 7y agoPrivacy policies generally applies to individuals, not corporations. Unless there's an NDA in place that Github can't speak about a particular customer, nothing apart from good will is preventing them.
- elliekelly 7y agoThis is a common misconception but is absolutely not true. If the scope of privacy policies were limited to natural persons then any website collecting data from a corporation would have no legal basis for doing so. But regardless, ICE was looking to renew a contract so there was an agreement already in place and I can virtually guarantee the terms include some flavor of mutual non-disclosure.
- SLIB53 7y agoHow is donating $500k in response to making $200k from their sale a relevant response? Is this their way of bribing people to quiet down? Seems twisted.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- Beltiras 7y agoAs corporate responses go this one is pretty activist. Compare and contrast with other weasely statements made by other CEOs lately.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- ocdtrekkie 7y agoPresumably the $500,000 in donation specifically to help victims of controversial ICE practices will have significantly more beneficial impact than the $200,000 in GitHub services they'll provide will do harm. And arguably, it means they're taking a loss on this particular business to both uphold their commitment to their customers and uphold their values regarding immigration practices. Given the level of complexity of the issue, I'd say it's at least... not a bad attempt at walking a very narrow line here.
- sremani 7y agoOne thing Businesses like consistency - if GitHub goes after ICE, then why not IRS or FBI or any other private organization - every Org is one controversy away from to be deemed persona non grata. Its not about ICE with GitHub, what they are doing is worth mulitple millions in future earnings. So good move CEO - the question is how much the WOKE nation is going to eat this PR CAKE.
- sascha_sl 7y agoThanks for explaining why corporate responsibility and the notion of voting with your wallet in capitalism are bullshit. Corporations care about being consistent with the status quo. Nothing more, nothing less. Now get these PR clowns out of my pride marches.
- andonisus 7y agoGet virtue signaling out of software communities.
- bananocurrency 7y agothis is a pretty enlightened opinion to have. I have a feeling virtue signaling changes meaning depending on who's doing the signaling.
- danharaj 7y agoWhat is virtue signaling?
- davidw 7y agoWhen people on the left say things that people on the right dislike. Serious answer: there's a theory that some people say things just to impress their friends of the same ideological stripes (although the charge is usually leveled against those on the left), rather than actually placing much importance on those things. For instance, the github people opposed to the ICE contract are just doing it to "look good" in the eyes of their peers rather than actually, say, caring about kids locked up in cages and the other nasty things that an unleashed ICE is doing. I think it's mostly a BS theory.
- mcbits 7y agoOriginally, disingenuous words and actions intended to build rapport with people of a particular ideological persuasion. Nowadays, nothing, in the same sense that quantum foam is nothing.
- camel_Snake 7y agoYou know how virtually all American politicians end their speeches with 'and God bless America'? That's a great example of virtue signalling. It doesn't really add anything of substance to the conversation, but does convey that 'I believe in God too', which is presumably a good thing to the electorate.
- vzidex 7y ago
- csande17 7y agoThe real scandal here is that GitHub apparently calls their employees "Hubbers".
- reificator 7y agoCutesy names for your employees/coworkers always comes off as creepy and cult like to me. Huge red flag when choosing where to work.
- mellosouls 7y agoAgree, it's a bit like being at school and having the teacher who wanted you to call him by his first name instead of Mr Whatever. It's a bit David Brent/Michael Scott, probably quite well meaning but a bit off.
- askl83 7y agoSo every venture-backed company in SF/SV? I agree I hate it, but there are some companies that do it more jokingly than others.
- zzzcpan 7y agoIt's the same thing as giving fandoms names, pretty manipulative and creepy.
- askl83 7y agoI agree - the reason why companies do this is because creating a unified culture, which this falls under, makes it easier to manage your rank-and-file. Personally I avoid companies that talk about "culture" ad nauseam.
- CameronBarre 7y agoPersonally, I agree. I love working with other people, but NOT under those circumstances!
- 7y ago
- lidHanteyk 7y agoSummary: "We're sorry. Also, we're not stopping." Neoliberals always align with the fascists. Profits over people.
- parasanti 7y agoWhy is this just now being called out? The current administration is doing the same as the Obama administration.
- olliej 7y agoUm, because under Obama ICE wasn’t putting kids in cages? Because it wasn’t withholding bedding? It wasn’t separating families and then “accidentally” losing track of the children? Children weren’t dying while in jail away from their parents? They weren’t denied food and clean water? Should I go on?
- commandlinefan 7y ago> it wasn’t withholding bedding? They actually tried to buy extra beds and one of the “do no business with ICE” companies refused to sell to them, so they ended up with fewer beds: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/26/wayfair-draws-backlash-calls-for-boycott-after-employee-protest.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/26/wayfair-draws-backlash-calls...
- olliej 7y agoNo. I didn't say not providing bedding, I said removing existing bedding. Because ICE believes in collective punishment of children, and considers removing bedding to be acceptable. [1,2] Here's a question for pro-ICE people: if another country started rounding up and separating American families, then lost track of the children, would you support those actions as well? Or does it only apply to people with the wrong skin color? [1] https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/inside-a-texas-building-where-the-government-is-holding-immigrant-children https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/inside-a-texas-buildi... [2] https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1142540367797116929 https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1142540367797116929
- trothamel 7y agoNote that according to Snopes, Obama's ICE was putting kids in cages. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/obama-build-cages-immigrants/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/obama-build-cages-immigran...
- rubyn00bie 7y agoBye, Github! I'm quite sure concentration camps were originally more "wholesome" than murdering endless legions of innocent people... How on earth can you in one sentence talk about child trafficking being bad and then know that children are being abused by the same fucking institution that's supposed to protect them? I shouldn't be shocked, but I'm kind of hurt probably from my own naivete, Github ain't any different than anywhere else-- all hail, profits before people. Canceling my private repos later today.
- admay 7y agoFree market yo. Gitlab has free private repos I think, can't remember. But I do remember enjoying using it while I did
- theli0nheart 7y ago> all hail, profits before people. GitHub is net negative $300,000 after their $500k donation, so how does this have anything to do with making more money?
- tehjoker 7y agoThey are showing solidarity with the state by continuing to do business with them in the hope that there will be more business down the line or to head off the threat of intrusion into their business. The amount of money is trivial compared to the relationships they are cultivating.
- rubyn00bie 7y agoThey aren’t down shit, it’s a tax write off. Don’t be fooled by that line.
- Vaslo 7y agoDon’t let the door hit you on the way out!
- rubyn00bie 7y agoLater, Nazi.
- Miner49er 7y agoSeems like the attempt to fix this (donating $500k) isn't going to work. So they've lost that money from the donation, I wonder how more they'll lose from people dropping them over this and from employees quitting. Seems like that $200k isn't worth it, I wonder why they don't just drop ICE or say they won't allow them to renew in the future.
- toomuchtodo 7y agoThe chances that actions by those who would boycott Microsoft or Github over ICE would inflict financial pain or negative PR worthy of changing business practices is so close to zero, we can round down for the sake of argument to zero. They are a trillion dollar company.
- Miner49er 7y agoThen why donate $500k? Why'd Chef choose to drop ICE? Why all this damage control if they aren't scared of losing money?
- toomuchtodo 7y agoPath of least resistance. The Outrage Machine has already moved on from Chef. This will blow over in a week or two as well. Anyone stop using or working at Uber, Slack, or WeWork [1] because of Saudi (and the human rights atrocities that go along with it [2]) money flowing into it via Softbank Vision? Not enough to matter if so. Everyone works at a company where one of their customers or investors is an evil monster, and if that customer is worth enough revenue or that investor worth enough investment, they're going to get a pass. No amount of Twitter, Facebook, or Reddit shaming is going to change that. If you don't want kids locked up in cages in ICE facilities (and I think it's pretty clear none of us want people of any sort treated inhumanely), show up and protest at facilities. Vote for decent politicians. Run for office. Donate to candidates who align with your beliefs. But don't pat yourself on the back with the assumption virtue theater like preventing a few hundred thousand in government spend matters. It's a whole lot of effort on everyone's part for not a lot of progress. In the same time everyone has been discussing this in thread, that's a lot of calls to congresspeople that could've been made. TLDR I strongly encourage citizens to get involved in actions that matter. These actions do nothing. [1] https://visionfund.com/portfolio https://visionfund.com/portfolio [2] https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2019/country-chapters/saudi-arabia https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2019/country-chapters/saudi...
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- tyri_kai_psomi 7y agoKudos to Github, it is so refreshing to hear a reasoned, nuanced response for once.
- zzzcpan 7y agoI guess you don't read much PR. PR is never sincere, it exists to manipulate public opinion.
- hnuser54 7y agoThis is a measured and well-thought out response. I'm not really sure where the detractors of Github here think the "cancelling" should stop. Should everybody start building additional backdoors in their software that shuts it down if it detects some sort of "bad" thing is being created, or possibly hook it up to a Twitter feed and shut down if people are saying bad things about the software operator? Github emphasized that they don't know what is being done with the on-premises, firewalled software they sold to ICE. What about the guy delivering pizza to ICE headquarters -- is he cancelled too? He doesn't know if the "must separate the children at the border" team or the "let's arrest the leaders of this slave trafficking ring" is eating the pizza. At least to me, some of the other protests in regards to ICE have been even more obviously incoherent, like the demand for Wayfair to stop selling clean beds for detained people to sleep in.
- srpablo 7y ago> Should everybody start building additional backdoors in their software that shuts it down if it detects some sort of "bad" software is being created, or possibly hook it up to a Twitter feed and shut down if people are saying bad things about the software operator? No, I think changing license terms to "won't be used by a company which separates families or violates international human rights laws," and not renewing the contract is fine enough. > Github emphasized that they don't know what is being done with the on-premises, firewalled software they sold to ICE. You don't have to know what ICE is doing with your software to know what they're doing more generally. > What about the guy delivering pizza to ICE headquarters -- is he cancelled too? He doesn't know if the "must separate the children at the border" team or the "let's arrest the leaders of this slave trafficking ring" is eating the pizza. "Cancelling" isn't a real thing, not distinct from "public opinion," anyway. If people want to direct ire to pizza delivery employees they can, but they're not, so I don't know why you're making this comparison. > At least to me, some of the other protests in regards to ICE have been even more obviously incoherent, like the demand for Wayfair to stop selling clean beds for detained people to sleep in. Any endeavor with lots of actors won't be entirely coherent, unified, or consistent. Some people think that Wayfair making profits on selling beds for prisons isn't some great altruism on Wayfair's part, and ICE would have a harder time building prisons if there weren't so many people eager to supply them; I don't know how much I'm on board with that as an effective protest, but I can at least understand it.
- _-david-_ 7y agoIf Github really cared about this then they should have forbidden the selling of the contract in the first place. The Trump admin's policy has been the US's policy for the last 20+ years.
- marpstar 7y agoBut muh virtue signaling...
- tehjoker 7y agoAnything less than total non-cooperation is finding a way to facilitate ICE, the USG, and their massive criminal acts against humanity.
- _-david-_ 7y agoI don't remember people outraged when companies worked with ICE when Obama was president. Obama did the same thing as Trump is doing. It feels so fake to me.
- tehjoker 7y agoI wasn't as aware of what was going on then. It has gotten worse under Trump, but Obama deserves searing criticism. Also, my views have become less partisan over time (in that I think both parties are bad to the bone).
- _-david-_ 7y agoHas the percentage of people sent to facilities increased under Trump? As far as I can tell it hasn't. There are more people trying to cross the border under Trump than Obama so there is probably a larger number of people in ICE facilities, but that wouldn't really be a fair criticism of Trump.
- atian 7y agoWell done. This is the best response.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- sebow 7y agoWhat a fuckfest. Leaves nothing to the thought of why people are abandoning Github.(And other such companies for that matter) Further proves the point that Corporations have more and more influence and de facto power than governments. Yes (subjectively, this is politics) what the US gov does through ICE is shitty, but "at least" ICE& the gov. are elected and not a for-profit corporation. The hypocrisy is high and the move is obvious: less immigrants gives Microsoft & company less profits. This has very little with "we're against ICE's methods because we care about our values" but more about the money. And yes, donating to charity & rejecting "dirty" money is still part of the PR move.As said in this thread, 500k is nothing to Microsoft.
- mikece 7y agoA very reasoned and balanced response by Nat. And interesting that they are making a larger-than-revenue-received donation to causes that offset the evils of ICE.
- rjurney 7y agoThis is what happens when you build a company, culture and product important for open source software and in the lives of individuals and organizations building and using it, that they depend on, and then... you take the money and sell out to a bunch of corporate assholes who held the internet back five years through monopoly that neuter you and your ability to take a stand against toxic injustice. Fuck you, Github. I can’t stop using you because you have a monopoly, but fuck you anyway.
- ignorereality 7y agoFuck you, open border Marxist.
- sarcasmatwork 7y ago>Like many Hubbers, I strongly disagree with many of the current administration’s immigration policies, including the practice of separating families at the border, the Muslim travel ban, and the efforts to dismantle the DACA program that protects people brought to the U.S. as children without documentation. Obama did the same crap, and here a CEO is blaming the current admin. If this CEO had a clue about what is going on, he would realize that the PARENTS are in the wrong by bringing their kids. Thus, because of child predators they have to be separated. Obama even said so. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4QniWO4_Yw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4QniWO4_Yw
- letmeinhere 7y agoThe sentence that you quoted cites three specific policies that this specific administration enacted ([1], [2], [3]). Trump campaigned on making two of these changes, explicitly juxtaposing them to what he considered to be the unacceptable Obama-led status quo. It is entirely rational for someone to "blame" an administration for the policy changes that they unilaterally enact. It's weird for you to be so defensive about this attribution, since you seem to agree with the changes. It is not "the same crap" because you have decided that it is all on a spectrum of "bad things that happen to people I don't care about." That's not how reality works. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_administration_family_separation_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_administration_family_se... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_travel_ban https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_travel_ban 3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferred_Action_for_Childhood_Arrivals#Rescission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferred_Action_for_Childhood_...
- psychometry 7y agoThey say that $200k doesn't make a difference to their bottom line, then come up with this convoluted argument for taking it anyway. Disappointed.
- sascha_sl 7y agoNeo-classical fantasy of being politically neutral and consistent with your own rules, even if said rules never envisioned a customer being a state-sanctioned criminal. One that only people bathing in privilege can indulge in.
- joncrane 7y agoThe "between the lines" message they're sending is that they're staying at the top of a slippery slope.
- camel_Snake 7y agoBut they are donating more than twice that. This seems like a pretty empty criticism.
- anarchodev 7y agoIt's not. Donating to help lawyers and humanitarian orgs clean up the mess your company is enabling this agency to create isn't the same as refusing to cooperate with them in the first place.
- NTDF9 7y agoThis is really unfortunate. The problem isn't law enforcement per se. The problem is selective disregard for humans under pressure. Many government organizations under current administration are deliberately hemorrhaging law enforcement or bringing in policies through internal memos (without congressional approval) to prey on the vulnerable. I would've hoped companies like Github would take a stand and call out these unfair enforcements. Once they do that, they can then continue on to serve the contract. However, keep highlighting how your customers are using perverted interpretations of law to treat humans badly.
- secraetomani 7y agoOnly a company run by white man can have such a position and support ICE which puts kids in cages. This is why we need more diversity at the top of tech companies. To fight structural racism.
- rsstack 7y agoSatya Nadella is the non-white immigrant CEO of Microsoft.
- secraetomani 7y agohttps://github.com/about/leadership https://github.com/about/leadership 4 white man. 4 white woman. One non-white man.
- dang 7y agoWe've banned this account for trolling. Please don't create accounts to break HN's site guidelines with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- moocowtruck 7y agothats just crazy talk
- sam0x17 7y agoMy response would have been: immediately push a ToS change + update to enterprise server so that it leaks all of ICE's code under MIT license (this would be mandated in the ToS change). Time it so the code is already public before they have time to react. Fuck ICE. I'd honestly throw away my career and all of GitHub's enterprise revenue to screw these guys over.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]