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China attacks Apple for allowing Hong Kong crowdsourced police activity app

372 points by elsewhen 7y ago

tru3_power 7y ago
Jeez they even tried to get a song removed from Apple Music? I wonder how much other stuff China was able to suppress without anyone noticing.
- brightball 7y ago
  When people believe that suppressing speech is the correct course of action, there's really no telling where it ends.
  - mtgx 7y ago
    True. The recent trend of regular people demanding online platforms to remove "fake news" or other offending content has been quite worrisome, mainly because we don't know where it will end. The US government is already trying to take advantage of this by conflating the encryption debate with the content moderation debate. https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20191007/00022343132/doj-is-conflating-content-moderation-debate-with-encryption-debate-dont-let-them.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20191007/00022343132/doj-i...
- noja 7y ago
  If they are worried about a song, it makes them look very weak indeed.
  - perlpimp 7y ago
    a movie started a democratic movement that ended in Tiananmen massacre so yeah.
    - Robotbeat 7y ago
      What movie is that?
  - vinceguidry 7y ago
    Please allow me to direct your attention to this small event in Chinese history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution If looking weak to Westerners was ever on CCP's priority list, it couldn't have been anywhere high.
  - La1n 7y ago
    I feel weird about all the China outrage currently. Some of it feels very hypocritical. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-nbc-license-ban-tweet-cnn-shut-down-fake-news-threat-latest-a7994861.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politic... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/05/31/a-song-that-calls-britains-theresa-may-a-liar-is-climbing-the-charts-but-it-isnt-being-played-on-the-radio/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/05/31...
    - baq 7y ago
      Rightly so but this thread is about China. What you’re doing is whataboutism.
    - toxik 7y ago
      Not sure if shill or just really disconnected? Trump saying outrageous stuff with little to no actual consequence is a FAR cry from the dictatorship of China.
SomeOldThrow 7y ago
I’ll admit, I don’t see apple supporting the equivalent app for, say, the US.
- chapium 7y ago
  5 seconds of googling. Police Detector (speed radar) apple appstore
- thoughtstheseus 7y ago
  I thought many GPS apps show speed traps and police checkpoints in real time? Not a user and not identical but I assumed they did.
  - jowday 7y ago
    Even Google Maps shows speed traps now.
  - z2 7y ago
    Interestingly and maybe ironically, Chinese navigation apps had speed trap warnings since day one. I wouldn't be surprised if it was officially sanctioned with a ton of false-positives thrown in, in a "speed traps are everywhere so you better always drive slowly" sort of way. Which makes me wonder, couldn't the HK police figure out ways in spam locations into this app?
- jedberg 7y ago
  Waze. They even featured it in a keynote.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
Despegar 7y ago
Apple will most likely be fine because it's unlike any other western company operating in China in that it employs a lot of people assembling their products. It's not in the CCP's interest for people to boycott Apple in a nationalist fervor only for unemployment to rise, which would be an existential threat to the CCP if they lost control of.
- sorenn111 7y ago
  So I googled and saw that there's 4.8 Million apple employees in China? More than i expected when I started the Google search. With that said, is that enough for China to care at all? a little? a lot? Meaning, I wouldn't be surprised if China would forgo plenty of jobs from Western companies as their economy matures. Especially if China fully boycotted Apple, I doubt many other US Companies would respond at all Many of those companies are showing themselves to be spineless right now
  - mey 7y ago
    Is that number direct employee's or does that include MFG/Suppliers etc? Either way, 4.8 million people + friends/family, being angry is not a small number. China's population is ~1.3 billion according to CIA world fact book. So it's certainly less than 1% of the population, but not insignificant.
    - d0100 7y ago
      I'd say it's significant because those are the people "awake". Most of the population are poor country-side folks who couldn't revolt in any meaningful way.
  - mc32 7y ago
    Guess it depends on how spread out or concentrated they are geographically. If concentrated it would have greater impact on a region.
  - JumpCrisscross 7y ago
    > if China fully boycotted Apple They'd seize the factories and continue production, at least for the medium term. It makes no sense economically, but it keeps Xi in power. To Beijing, the factories are valuable for (a) IP and (b) jobs. Apple walking deprives China of (a), but not (b), not in the short term.
strooper 7y ago
Western companies have been bending blatantly a little too low to save assets and market shares in China. With trade war, human rights abuse in Xinjiang, and Hong Kong protest, this is probably a good chance for the West to stand against China's invasion.
- ycombonator 7y ago
  No politician for the past 50 years stood up to China until Trump faced them head on. Credit where it’s due.
  - vermontdevil 7y ago
    He sure isn’t standing up for Hong Kong. Jeez.
    - vuln 7y ago
      What does standing up for Hong Kong mean to you. What could Trump do to help? Generally curious.
      - bluGill 7y ago
        Just recognizing HK and Taiwan as separate countries from China would be big.
        jldugger 7y ago
        Recognizing HK as independent would be a huge step, and one even the UK didn't take.
        aianus 7y ago
        The UK wanted to give HK free elections and China threatened to invade if they did. https://www.scmp.com/article/48108/thatcher-reveals-dengs-threat-seize-hong-kong-day https://www.scmp.com/article/48108/thatcher-reveals-dengs-th...
brink 7y ago
This would be a great time for Apple to start allowing users to install apps manually.
- elpakal 7y ago
  you can also have up to 10,000 TestFlight users now i believe...
  - joeloya 7y ago
    Still has to be reviewed by apple before submitting to Beta Testers.
  - on_and_off 7y ago
    That is not the same at all.
- nanoservices 7y ago
  Been an Android users since the first Android phone (HTC G1), before that I was on Windows Mobile. If Apple opened things up I would switch in a heartbeat. I doubt it will happen though.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - helpPeople 7y ago
    I could never trust Apple given their track record. Plus, their hardware is overpriced for what you get. I genuinely have a hard time understanding the appeal. It seems to have the Gucci brand name, maybe integrations but I don't feel this is lacking on Android, and maybe privacy but I don't trust Apple for privacy.
    - bashinator 7y ago
      But you do trust Google for privacy?
_bxg1 7y ago
The China market is often framed as a mortal necessity for companies that have no more room to grow stateside. What we forget is that this assumes infinite corporate growth, which is literally impossible, despite being demanded by shareholders. We need to drop this notion that every single year has to result in growth. Corporations no longer have the option of settling into a market segment and developing a harmonious relationship with society. They grow like cancers, consuming everything they possibly can ad infinitum, and this unquenchable hunger is the only reason they find themselves making compromises to appease China.
- pdimitar 7y ago
  That's absolutely right. The toxic and relentless push for infinite growth pairs really well with the dreamy promise of infinite untapped market potential in China. I really wish even the greediest of investors and shareholders in general to finally wake up that this dream will never materialise. Even if you get to China you'll quickly find out there are a lot of strings attached if you want your "infinite growth" -- and it definitely will be a lot less than you thought.
  - meddlepal 7y ago
    You're thinking of it wrong, it's not infinite growth investors are after. They are after easy and fast growth. Infinite growth is useless on a mortal timescale. Easy and fast growth is where it's at and places like China offer tons of it.
    - pdimitar 7y ago
      We are saying the same thing with different words. But I do question if China really offers tons of easy and fast growth.
      - _bxg1 7y ago
        Fast, but we're starting to see the cracks in "easy".
- 7y ago
ycombonator 7y ago
That didn’t take long. NBA, American Airlines, Blizzard, Marriot.. the list grows. Soon they will have to ban rest of the 6 billion people.
- puranjay 7y ago
  I wonder how much of this is because they know there is going to be a crash soon and need to consolidate power and control the narrative internally before it happens
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - Infinitesimus 7y ago
    I didn't consider that angle... If this is the series of events that triggers the next global recession, it gives both the US and Chinese govt enough fodder for propaganda about "national security concerns" and how this is the other side's fault. Oy
NicoJuicy 7y ago
I'm an Android user, but this might be the first action of Apple that gets some respect from me without alternative motives. It would be one that makes me change to a more expensive platform in 3-6 months. Nice
- helpPeople 7y ago
  Apple has bent the knee plenty of times to China. If you really are an Android user, this should not be news. You can put any app on your device. Only Apple restricts you.
  - NicoJuicy 7y ago
    I did say it's the first time, didn't I
    - helpPeople 7y ago
      So why would you change to a less reliable company?
      - NicoJuicy 7y ago
        Not anymore ;)
vermontdevil 7y ago
Apple is going to cave. And it’ll set a worse precedent because other governments are going to demand backdoors etc.
- dkonofalski 7y ago
  If Apple didn't cave to the US government, what makes you think they're going to cave to China?
  - reaperducer 7y ago
    If Apple didn't cave to the US government, what makes you think they're going to cave to China? Because it has, occasionally, in the past. Apple doesn't have a perfect record when it comes to China. It's OK. I'm not sure I'd call it "good." But between the Taiwan flag emoji, and the Chinese iCloud fiasco, my esteem for Apple is at an all-time low.
    - dkonofalski 7y ago
      Apple is required to follow the laws of the region in which their product is used so both of those scenarios aren't Apple "caving" to China. Apple is just following what they have to do for their software in those cases. In this case, it's someone else's software and they chose not to "cave" because there's no obligation on their part to take action since the app doesn't break any rules or laws.
  - coolspot 7y ago
    Apple didn't cave to US government, because they are not obligated by US law to do so. In China they have/make any laws needed to make Apple cave. See Apple iCloud in China.
  - Raymonf 7y ago
    Apple hid the flag of Taiwan/ROC flag for users in Macau and Hong Kong, and changed the name of Taiwan in Siri to 「中國台灣」 (Taiwan, China). This is a new change with iOS 13.1.x and 13.2.
  - 7y ago
dkonofalski 7y ago
Weird. Yesterday, people on here were accusing Apple of bowing to the Chinese for this exact same app.
- ootan 7y ago
  It's not weird. Apple reversed their decision and allowed the app on the App Store. Now they are facing veiled threats from Chinese state media for doing the right thing.
  - dkonofalski 7y ago
    How is that not weird? The posts from yesterday were after the app had already been approved and released. And, unless someone has a source that says otherwise, it seems very likely that the app rejection was automatic and had nothing to do with the political implications being ascribed to it.
  - mercutio2 7y ago
    There was no reversal. It was new, and had never been approved. It got through the approval process recently.
    - perennate 7y ago
      According to [1]: The app, known as HKmap.live, is a mobile version of a website that helps users avoid potentially dangerous areas, according to the developer, who uses the alias Kuma to remain anonymous. It was rejected from Apple’s App Store because it "facilitates, enables, and encourages an activity that is not legal," Apple told the developer, according to a copy of the rejection notice seen by Bloomberg News. "Specifically, the app allowed users to evade law enforcement," Apple wrote. Bloomberg claims they saw the initial rejection notice, which was later reversed. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-10-03/apple-reviews-rejected-hong-kong-app-again-after-controversy https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-10-03/apple-rev...
      - mercutio2 7y ago
throwawayjohnny 7y ago
“Providing a gateway for ‘toxic apps’ is hurting the feelings of the Chinese people" Awww, your feelings got hurt? Care to think about the feelings of a million Uighur people that are being tortured in concentration camps? Or the 7 million Hongkongers that you've been trying bully into submission?
- dang 7y ago
  Breaking the site guidelines like this will get your main account banned as well, so please don't.
alexron782 7y ago
https://www.quora.com/Was-Hong-Kong-more-democratic-under-British-rule-or-under-Chinese-rule https://www.quora.com/Was-Hong-Kong-more-democratic-under-Br... ps: I truly believe most of people here talking about Hong Kong have no idea how Hong Kong works before and after CCP. I found it both sad and amusing, but often time I found myself stupid when posting on the Internet. But anyhow, the facts should be delivered.
- PostPost 7y ago
  Sorry if this sounds rude, but why does it matter if HK was more or less democratic before 1991? The protesters are not asking for a return to British rule. In the same vein, the United States is vastly more democratic than it was a 100 years ago. That does not mean the democratic process does not need additional improvement; there are critical things worth protesting today.
  - moggie2 7y ago
    The unfortunate part is not WHAT the protesters are asking, it is about HOW the protesters are asking. For those who were only watching from the western mainstream media, you are missing out on some footage of the whole picture. E.g) You may have seen police beating up protesters, but you were not told that police were beaten by surprise from behind. You may have seen police fire warning shot with lethal weapon, but you were not told that police chased by mob of angry protesters who were wielding metal rod at a police who fell on floor. You may have seen police shot a protester who was later identified as a high school student, but you were not told that a mob of angry protesters were wielding sharpened metal rod, hammer and wrench on another police who were chased, jumped on and fell on floor in front of him. You may have heard police shot a 14 years old on the street and then being set on fire by petrol bombs but you were not told that he was surrounded by mobs of protester in his car before, being assaulted from behind after he stepped out and beaten up on the ground by surrounding mobs with metal rods. You may have seen police shooting tear gas and rubber bullets at crowds, but you were not told that police were launched by bricks, metal rods, slingshot, petrol bombs or metal road sign from the bridge above their head. You may have seen "pro-China" citizens removing stickies and posters on wall, but you were not told "pro-China" citizens were beaten up with severe injuries. You may have seen 'pro-China' chanted 'We are all Chinese' beaten up by protester, but you were not told that he was being spied on his personal cellphone by the so-called 'reporters' and a western 'reporter' blocked his way out by shutting the door in front of him. Unless you can understand Cantonese, you definitely were not told that many citizens were famed for attacking reporters or females, beaten severely and unconsciously only because they expressed different opinions in the public or taking picture of protesters vandalizing public properties / stores / banks. You would not be told that professors were locked up and surrounded by mob of angry students only because he expressed different opinions on social media. You would not be told that many high school students were trained or encouraged by their teacher to set fire on the street or fight against police. You may have read a female lose an eye and accused of police weaponry, but you were not told that the same girl whom assisted by the opposition party filed an objection to police to obtain her medical record for investigation to proof her claim. Unless you can understand Cantonese, you would not be told that protesters are always asking others to open their umbrella to shield themselves from being recorded when they are vandalizing properties or beating up people with different opinions. You may have been told that they are fighting for their freedom, but you were not told that none of their already owned freedom were taken away. You may have been told that they are fighting for their 'future', but you were not told that they are very willing to sacrifices the 'present' of many families who were still making a living nor the 'past' of those who contributed to the society. It is not true that all actions from the police are justifiable. But at the same time, HongKongers youth are definitely smart nowadays, they know exactly the interests of the western media. Hence they will always play nice with 'reporters' from different colors and always portray themselves as the victims in many incidents.
moggie2 7y ago
Title is kinda misleading. A more accurate but longer one is like 'China state media journalist accused Apple approving app that aid violent protesters from evading police" Which similarly, it also happens on the other part of the world? E.g) US? https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/06/nyregion/waze-nypd-location.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/06/nyregion/waze-nypd-locati... https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/01/28/382013185/officers-ask-map-app-to-remove-police-tracking https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/01/28/382013185...
- reaperducer 7y ago
  It's not surprising that two different organizations would have two different headlines. That's common sense, not a conspiracy.
  - La1n 7y ago
    NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/09/world/asia/china-apple-nba-hong-kong.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/09/world/asia/china-apple-nb... Even the same organisation. Still not a conspiracy but as a non US citizen it's clear that a lot of the US media doesn't treat China the same as the US. I am sure it's like that in every country, but that makes it difficult to find objective news, or at least news that doesn't have an emotional charge to it.
    - wavefunction 7y ago
      Websites will a/b test different headlines to drive visitors to the articles and revise them during the course of the day to play off subsequent developments. The reason they inject emotion into the headlines is because that's what people want.
      - La1n 7y ago
        Oh I fully agree and I think that's terrible. It's awful in my opinion that a news organisation cares more about their income and what people want to hear, than what is objective news.
zachguo 7y ago
So the word 'attack' has a new meaning now?
- 0xffff2 7y ago
  What new meaning?
mikenew 7y ago
Happy to see Apple caught in such a difficult situation. They insist on being the sole arbiter of what software a user is allowed to install on their device, so this is their burden to bear. They could at any point give up their walled garden approach to iOS, but they won't, so they're dragged into this impossible situation of appeasing CCP or appeasing the rest of the world. FWIW I'm happy they've chosen to allow the app (although at first they didn't), but the whole situation really brings the consequences of controlling a user's device to light. I hope it changes.
- _bxg1 7y ago
  I've always accepted their walled-garden philosophy as a security measure, but you know, I'm realizing that it doesn't have to be either-or. They can continue to hold App Store listings to high standards of security and quality, and I'll continue to use it when that's what I want, while allowing people the option of side-loading at their own risk. Most of the problems with malicious apps on Android don't happen because of side-loading, they happen because of Google's terrible moderation of the Play store.
  - 0xffff2 7y ago
    The trouble is that if you provide a mechanism to side-load, people will be convinced to use it without understanding the risks they are taking. See also the recent issues with MDM. In that sense, it kind of is either/or for the average user.
    - mikenew 7y ago
      Is side-loading really that common for an Android user? It hardly seems widespread. Certainly not for your average, tech-illiterate consumer.
      - hu3 7y ago
        n=1 From all the android users who I have some level of intimacy, the only one sideloading an android app is my brother who uses a gps spoofer to teleport his Pokemon Go character around the world without leaving the confort of his chair. He's a dev and poweruser who knows what he's doing. All the other dozens of users only have apps from Google's app store.
paulcarroty 7y ago
> This app is truly rioters’ friend. It helps criminals to circumvent and escape the police, get away with all their sabotage, vandalizing, and violences committed to anyone who doesn’t support them. 2.5/5 rating thanks to stupid Chinese bots. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/hkmap-即時地圖/id1480938601 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/hkmap-即時地圖/id1480938601
- NicoJuicy 7y ago
  Easy way to flag Chinese bot accounts and delete them then
- quotz 7y ago
  If the chinese agents can downvote AppStore apps, they can easily do that here at HN. I've had a lot of negative experiences lately on my antiCCP comments...
superkuh 7y ago
Here we see the true form of the word "toxic" as it is applied in modern discourse. >“Providing a gateway for ‘toxic apps’ is hurting the feelings of the Chinese people, twisting the facts of Hong Kong affairs, and against the views and principles of the Chinese people,” It's a way to say something is bad without saying anything about it.
- K0SM0S 7y ago
  The term in the context of propaganda is as clear as it gets though, if you mean to say "infecting or enabling otherwise 'sane' people with 'undesirable' ideas and behaviors". Toxic is subtext that directly speaks to people (Chinese) wondering "what should I do?" => don't use it, don't even approach it or look at it (it's toxic). It's idiomatic and quite explicit, in subtext, in this context (Chinese gov stuff).
mikelyons 7y ago
Apple is sitting on cash reserves big enough that they could change the world right now by pulling production out of China completely. This would be a wild future.

372 points by elsewhen 7y ago

Jeez they even tried to get a song removed from Apple Music? I wonder how much other stuff China was able to suppress without anyone noticing.

brightball 7y ago
When people believe that suppressing speech is the correct course of action, there's really no telling where it ends.
- mtgx 7y ago
  True. The recent trend of regular people demanding online platforms to remove "fake news" or other offending content has been quite worrisome, mainly because we don't know where it will end. The US government is already trying to take advantage of this by conflating the encryption debate with the content moderation debate. https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20191007/00022343132/doj-is-conflating-content-moderation-debate-with-encryption-debate-dont-let-them.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20191007/00022343132/doj-i...
noja 7y ago
If they are worried about a song, it makes them look very weak indeed.
- perlpimp 7y ago
  a movie started a democratic movement that ended in Tiananmen massacre so yeah.
  - Robotbeat 7y ago
    What movie is that?
- vinceguidry 7y ago
  Please allow me to direct your attention to this small event in Chinese history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution If looking weak to Westerners was ever on CCP's priority list, it couldn't have been anywhere high.
- La1n 7y ago
  I feel weird about all the China outrage currently. Some of it feels very hypocritical. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-nbc-license-ban-tweet-cnn-shut-down-fake-news-threat-latest-a7994861.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politic... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/05/31/a-song-that-calls-britains-theresa-may-a-liar-is-climbing-the-charts-but-it-isnt-being-played-on-the-radio/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/05/31...
  - baq 7y ago
    Rightly so but this thread is about China. What you’re doing is whataboutism.
  - toxik 7y ago
    Not sure if shill or just really disconnected? Trump saying outrageous stuff with little to no actual consequence is a FAR cry from the dictatorship of China.

SomeOldThrow 7y ago

I’ll admit, I don’t see apple supporting the equivalent app for, say, the US.

chapium 7y ago
5 seconds of googling. Police Detector (speed radar) apple appstore
thoughtstheseus 7y ago
I thought many GPS apps show speed traps and police checkpoints in real time? Not a user and not identical but I assumed they did.
- jowday 7y ago
  Even Google Maps shows speed traps now.
- z2 7y ago
  Interestingly and maybe ironically, Chinese navigation apps had speed trap warnings since day one. I wouldn't be surprised if it was officially sanctioned with a ton of false-positives thrown in, in a "speed traps are everywhere so you better always drive slowly" sort of way. Which makes me wonder, couldn't the HK police figure out ways in spam locations into this app?
jedberg 7y ago
Waze. They even featured it in a keynote.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

Despegar 7y ago

Apple will most likely be fine because it's unlike any other western company operating in China in that it employs a lot of people assembling their products. It's not in the CCP's interest for people to boycott Apple in a nationalist fervor only for unemployment to rise, which would be an existential threat to the CCP if they lost control of.

sorenn111 7y ago
So I googled and saw that there's 4.8 Million apple employees in China? More than i expected when I started the Google search. With that said, is that enough for China to care at all? a little? a lot? Meaning, I wouldn't be surprised if China would forgo plenty of jobs from Western companies as their economy matures. Especially if China fully boycotted Apple, I doubt many other US Companies would respond at all Many of those companies are showing themselves to be spineless right now
- mey 7y ago
  Is that number direct employee's or does that include MFG/Suppliers etc? Either way, 4.8 million people + friends/family, being angry is not a small number. China's population is ~1.3 billion according to CIA world fact book. So it's certainly less than 1% of the population, but not insignificant.
  - d0100 7y ago
    I'd say it's significant because those are the people "awake". Most of the population are poor country-side folks who couldn't revolt in any meaningful way.
- mc32 7y ago
  Guess it depends on how spread out or concentrated they are geographically. If concentrated it would have greater impact on a region.
- JumpCrisscross 7y ago
  > if China fully boycotted Apple They'd seize the factories and continue production, at least for the medium term. It makes no sense economically, but it keeps Xi in power. To Beijing, the factories are valuable for (a) IP and (b) jobs. Apple walking deprives China of (a), but not (b), not in the short term.

strooper 7y ago

Western companies have been bending blatantly a little too low to save assets and market shares in China. With trade war, human rights abuse in Xinjiang, and Hong Kong protest, this is probably a good chance for the West to stand against China's invasion.

ycombonator 7y ago
No politician for the past 50 years stood up to China until Trump faced them head on. Credit where it’s due.
- vermontdevil 7y ago
  He sure isn’t standing up for Hong Kong. Jeez.
  - vuln 7y ago
    What does standing up for Hong Kong mean to you. What could Trump do to help? Generally curious.
    - bluGill 7y ago
      Just recognizing HK and Taiwan as separate countries from China would be big.
      - jldugger 7y ago
        Recognizing HK as independent would be a huge step, and one even the UK didn't take.
        aianus 7y ago
        The UK wanted to give HK free elections and China threatened to invade if they did. https://www.scmp.com/article/48108/thatcher-reveals-dengs-threat-seize-hong-kong-day https://www.scmp.com/article/48108/thatcher-reveals-dengs-th...

brink 7y ago

This would be a great time for Apple to start allowing users to install apps manually.

elpakal 7y ago
you can also have up to 10,000 TestFlight users now i believe...
- joeloya 7y ago
  Still has to be reviewed by apple before submitting to Beta Testers.
- on_and_off 7y ago
  That is not the same at all.
nanoservices 7y ago
Been an Android users since the first Android phone (HTC G1), before that I was on Windows Mobile. If Apple opened things up I would switch in a heartbeat. I doubt it will happen though.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- helpPeople 7y ago
  I could never trust Apple given their track record. Plus, their hardware is overpriced for what you get. I genuinely have a hard time understanding the appeal. It seems to have the Gucci brand name, maybe integrations but I don't feel this is lacking on Android, and maybe privacy but I don't trust Apple for privacy.
  - bashinator 7y ago
    But you do trust Google for privacy?

_bxg1 7y ago

The China market is often framed as a mortal necessity for companies that have no more room to grow stateside. What we forget is that this assumes infinite corporate growth, which is literally impossible, despite being demanded by shareholders. We need to drop this notion that every single year has to result in growth. Corporations no longer have the option of settling into a market segment and developing a harmonious relationship with society. They grow like cancers, consuming everything they possibly can ad infinitum, and this unquenchable hunger is the only reason they find themselves making compromises to appease China.

pdimitar 7y ago
That's absolutely right. The toxic and relentless push for infinite growth pairs really well with the dreamy promise of infinite untapped market potential in China. I really wish even the greediest of investors and shareholders in general to finally wake up that this dream will never materialise. Even if you get to China you'll quickly find out there are a lot of strings attached if you want your "infinite growth" -- and it definitely will be a lot less than you thought.
- meddlepal 7y ago
  You're thinking of it wrong, it's not infinite growth investors are after. They are after easy and fast growth. Infinite growth is useless on a mortal timescale. Easy and fast growth is where it's at and places like China offer tons of it.
  - pdimitar 7y ago
    We are saying the same thing with different words. But I do question if China really offers tons of easy and fast growth.
    - _bxg1 7y ago
      Fast, but we're starting to see the cracks in "easy".
7y ago

ycombonator 7y ago

That didn’t take long. NBA, American Airlines, Blizzard, Marriot.. the list grows. Soon they will have to ban rest of the 6 billion people.

puranjay 7y ago
I wonder how much of this is because they know there is going to be a crash soon and need to consolidate power and control the narrative internally before it happens
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- Infinitesimus 7y ago
  I didn't consider that angle... If this is the series of events that triggers the next global recession, it gives both the US and Chinese govt enough fodder for propaganda about "national security concerns" and how this is the other side's fault. Oy

NicoJuicy 7y ago

I'm an Android user, but this might be the first action of Apple that gets some respect from me without alternative motives. It would be one that makes me change to a more expensive platform in 3-6 months. Nice

helpPeople 7y ago
Apple has bent the knee plenty of times to China. If you really are an Android user, this should not be news. You can put any app on your device. Only Apple restricts you.
- NicoJuicy 7y ago
  I did say it's the first time, didn't I
  - helpPeople 7y ago
    So why would you change to a less reliable company?
    - NicoJuicy 7y ago
      Not anymore ;)

vermontdevil 7y ago

Apple is going to cave. And it’ll set a worse precedent because other governments are going to demand backdoors etc.

dkonofalski 7y ago
If Apple didn't cave to the US government, what makes you think they're going to cave to China?
- reaperducer 7y ago
  If Apple didn't cave to the US government, what makes you think they're going to cave to China? Because it has, occasionally, in the past. Apple doesn't have a perfect record when it comes to China. It's OK. I'm not sure I'd call it "good." But between the Taiwan flag emoji, and the Chinese iCloud fiasco, my esteem for Apple is at an all-time low.
  - dkonofalski 7y ago
    Apple is required to follow the laws of the region in which their product is used so both of those scenarios aren't Apple "caving" to China. Apple is just following what they have to do for their software in those cases. In this case, it's someone else's software and they chose not to "cave" because there's no obligation on their part to take action since the app doesn't break any rules or laws.
- coolspot 7y ago
  Apple didn't cave to US government, because they are not obligated by US law to do so. In China they have/make any laws needed to make Apple cave. See Apple iCloud in China.
- Raymonf 7y ago
  Apple hid the flag of Taiwan/ROC flag for users in Macau and Hong Kong, and changed the name of Taiwan in Siri to 「中國台灣」 (Taiwan, China). This is a new change with iOS 13.1.x and 13.2.
- 7y ago

dkonofalski 7y ago

Weird. Yesterday, people on here were accusing Apple of bowing to the Chinese for this exact same app.

ootan 7y ago
It's not weird. Apple reversed their decision and allowed the app on the App Store. Now they are facing veiled threats from Chinese state media for doing the right thing.
- dkonofalski 7y ago
  How is that not weird? The posts from yesterday were after the app had already been approved and released. And, unless someone has a source that says otherwise, it seems very likely that the app rejection was automatic and had nothing to do with the political implications being ascribed to it.
- mercutio2 7y ago
  There was no reversal. It was new, and had never been approved. It got through the approval process recently.
  - perennate 7y ago
    According to [1]: The app, known as HKmap.live, is a mobile version of a website that helps users avoid potentially dangerous areas, according to the developer, who uses the alias Kuma to remain anonymous. It was rejected from Apple’s App Store because it "facilitates, enables, and encourages an activity that is not legal," Apple told the developer, according to a copy of the rejection notice seen by Bloomberg News. "Specifically, the app allowed users to evade law enforcement," Apple wrote. Bloomberg claims they saw the initial rejection notice, which was later reversed. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-10-03/apple-reviews-rejected-hong-kong-app-again-after-controversy https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-10-03/apple-rev...
    - mercutio2 7y ago

throwawayjohnny 7y ago

“Providing a gateway for ‘toxic apps’ is hurting the feelings of the Chinese people" Awww, your feelings got hurt? Care to think about the feelings of a million Uighur people that are being tortured in concentration camps? Or the 7 million Hongkongers that you've been trying bully into submission?

dang 7y ago
Breaking the site guidelines like this will get your main account banned as well, so please don't.

alexron782 7y ago

https://www.quora.com/Was-Hong-Kong-more-democratic-under-British-rule-or-under-Chinese-rule https://www.quora.com/Was-Hong-Kong-more-democratic-under-Br... ps: I truly believe most of people here talking about Hong Kong have no idea how Hong Kong works before and after CCP. I found it both sad and amusing, but often time I found myself stupid when posting on the Internet. But anyhow, the facts should be delivered.

PostPost 7y ago
Sorry if this sounds rude, but why does it matter if HK was more or less democratic before 1991? The protesters are not asking for a return to British rule. In the same vein, the United States is vastly more democratic than it was a 100 years ago. That does not mean the democratic process does not need additional improvement; there are critical things worth protesting today.
- moggie2 7y ago
  The unfortunate part is not WHAT the protesters are asking, it is about HOW the protesters are asking. For those who were only watching from the western mainstream media, you are missing out on some footage of the whole picture. E.g) You may have seen police beating up protesters, but you were not told that police were beaten by surprise from behind. You may have seen police fire warning shot with lethal weapon, but you were not told that police chased by mob of angry protesters who were wielding metal rod at a police who fell on floor. You may have seen police shot a protester who was later identified as a high school student, but you were not told that a mob of angry protesters were wielding sharpened metal rod, hammer and wrench on another police who were chased, jumped on and fell on floor in front of him. You may have heard police shot a 14 years old on the street and then being set on fire by petrol bombs but you were not told that he was surrounded by mobs of protester in his car before, being assaulted from behind after he stepped out and beaten up on the ground by surrounding mobs with metal rods. You may have seen police shooting tear gas and rubber bullets at crowds, but you were not told that police were launched by bricks, metal rods, slingshot, petrol bombs or metal road sign from the bridge above their head. You may have seen "pro-China" citizens removing stickies and posters on wall, but you were not told "pro-China" citizens were beaten up with severe injuries. You may have seen 'pro-China' chanted 'We are all Chinese' beaten up by protester, but you were not told that he was being spied on his personal cellphone by the so-called 'reporters' and a western 'reporter' blocked his way out by shutting the door in front of him. Unless you can understand Cantonese, you definitely were not told that many citizens were famed for attacking reporters or females, beaten severely and unconsciously only because they expressed different opinions in the public or taking picture of protesters vandalizing public properties / stores / banks. You would not be told that professors were locked up and surrounded by mob of angry students only because he expressed different opinions on social media. You would not be told that many high school students were trained or encouraged by their teacher to set fire on the street or fight against police. You may have read a female lose an eye and accused of police weaponry, but you were not told that the same girl whom assisted by the opposition party filed an objection to police to obtain her medical record for investigation to proof her claim. Unless you can understand Cantonese, you would not be told that protesters are always asking others to open their umbrella to shield themselves from being recorded when they are vandalizing properties or beating up people with different opinions. You may have been told that they are fighting for their freedom, but you were not told that none of their already owned freedom were taken away. You may have been told that they are fighting for their 'future', but you were not told that they are very willing to sacrifices the 'present' of many families who were still making a living nor the 'past' of those who contributed to the society. It is not true that all actions from the police are justifiable. But at the same time, HongKongers youth are definitely smart nowadays, they know exactly the interests of the western media. Hence they will always play nice with 'reporters' from different colors and always portray themselves as the victims in many incidents.

moggie2 7y ago

Title is kinda misleading. A more accurate but longer one is like 'China state media journalist accused Apple approving app that aid violent protesters from evading police" Which similarly, it also happens on the other part of the world? E.g) US? https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/06/nyregion/waze-nypd-location.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/06/nyregion/waze-nypd-locati... https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/01/28/382013185/officers-ask-map-app-to-remove-police-tracking https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/01/28/382013185...

reaperducer 7y ago
It's not surprising that two different organizations would have two different headlines. That's common sense, not a conspiracy.
- La1n 7y ago
  NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/09/world/asia/china-apple-nba-hong-kong.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/09/world/asia/china-apple-nb... Even the same organisation. Still not a conspiracy but as a non US citizen it's clear that a lot of the US media doesn't treat China the same as the US. I am sure it's like that in every country, but that makes it difficult to find objective news, or at least news that doesn't have an emotional charge to it.
  - wavefunction 7y ago
    Websites will a/b test different headlines to drive visitors to the articles and revise them during the course of the day to play off subsequent developments. The reason they inject emotion into the headlines is because that's what people want.
    - La1n 7y ago
      Oh I fully agree and I think that's terrible. It's awful in my opinion that a news organisation cares more about their income and what people want to hear, than what is objective news.

zachguo 7y ago

So the word 'attack' has a new meaning now?

0xffff2 7y ago
What new meaning?

mikenew 7y ago

Happy to see Apple caught in such a difficult situation. They insist on being the sole arbiter of what software a user is allowed to install on their device, so this is their burden to bear. They could at any point give up their walled garden approach to iOS, but they won't, so they're dragged into this impossible situation of appeasing CCP or appeasing the rest of the world. FWIW I'm happy they've chosen to allow the app (although at first they didn't), but the whole situation really brings the consequences of controlling a user's device to light. I hope it changes.

_bxg1 7y ago
I've always accepted their walled-garden philosophy as a security measure, but you know, I'm realizing that it doesn't have to be either-or. They can continue to hold App Store listings to high standards of security and quality, and I'll continue to use it when that's what I want, while allowing people the option of side-loading at their own risk. Most of the problems with malicious apps on Android don't happen because of side-loading, they happen because of Google's terrible moderation of the Play store.
- 0xffff2 7y ago
  The trouble is that if you provide a mechanism to side-load, people will be convinced to use it without understanding the risks they are taking. See also the recent issues with MDM. In that sense, it kind of is either/or for the average user.
  - mikenew 7y ago
    Is side-loading really that common for an Android user? It hardly seems widespread. Certainly not for your average, tech-illiterate consumer.
    - hu3 7y ago
      n=1 From all the android users who I have some level of intimacy, the only one sideloading an android app is my brother who uses a gps spoofer to teleport his Pokemon Go character around the world without leaving the confort of his chair. He's a dev and poweruser who knows what he's doing. All the other dozens of users only have apps from Google's app store.

paulcarroty 7y ago

> This app is truly rioters’ friend. It helps criminals to circumvent and escape the police, get away with all their sabotage, vandalizing, and violences committed to anyone who doesn’t support them. 2.5/5 rating thanks to stupid Chinese bots. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/hkmap-即時地圖/id1480938601 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/hkmap-即時地圖/id1480938601

NicoJuicy 7y ago
Easy way to flag Chinese bot accounts and delete them then
quotz 7y ago
If the chinese agents can downvote AppStore apps, they can easily do that here at HN. I've had a lot of negative experiences lately on my antiCCP comments...

superkuh 7y ago

Here we see the true form of the word "toxic" as it is applied in modern discourse. >“Providing a gateway for ‘toxic apps’ is hurting the feelings of the Chinese people, twisting the facts of Hong Kong affairs, and against the views and principles of the Chinese people,” It's a way to say something is bad without saying anything about it.

K0SM0S 7y ago
The term in the context of propaganda is as clear as it gets though, if you mean to say "infecting or enabling otherwise 'sane' people with 'undesirable' ideas and behaviors". Toxic is subtext that directly speaks to people (Chinese) wondering "what should I do?" => don't use it, don't even approach it or look at it (it's toxic). It's idiomatic and quite explicit, in subtext, in this context (Chinese gov stuff).

mikelyons 7y ago

Apple is sitting on cash reserves big enough that they could change the world right now by pulling production out of China completely. This would be a wild future.