4 ms·

Weird how everyone focuses on Trumps -admittedly- idiotic retreat and his tweets, while one thing is very rarely mentioned: How the bloody hell can it be that o

Weird how everyone focuses on Trumps -admittedly- idiotic retreat and his tweets, while one thing is very rarely mentioned: How the bloody hell can it be that one NATO-Member needs troops on the ground to prevent another NATO-Member from comitting a genocide?

alpervv 7y ago
what genocide are you talking about? Assuming you're American, imagine if Native Americans were to form a separatist organisation with 10,000s of civilian casualties (both kurdish and turkish) over decades. And then imagine if the people has interpreted your actions against this particular group as "genocide". How would you feel?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
beat 7y ago
That rabbit hole leads to asking why NATO members are considered more moral and enlightened than other nations. Turkey was invited to be a NATO member (and accepted) due to Cold War fear of the USSR, and historic conflicts with Russia. So NATO overlooked Turkey's shortcomings in the interest of realpolitik, and Turkey played nicer in the interest of NATO's reputation.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- empath75 7y ago
  Turkey has played (or been played by) shifting allegiances with "the West" and Russia since the late Ottoman Empire. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Question https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Question
- exar0815 7y ago
  As far as I recall, NATO was always seen as a organization of western democracies. IIRC there are and were only at least nominally democratic countries members - Spain was only admitted after Franco. And genocide was always the line every country drew - e.g. Bosnia, Rwanda...
  - luckylion 7y ago
    Neither Bosnia nor Rwanda were ever members (or close to becoming one). Turkey is a very special case, so much so that it's still militarily occupying parts of an EU member state while being a NATO member. The Red Scare and later having millions of loyal voters inside Western Europe are very good playing cards though, and Turkey knows that Europe hates conflict and won't ever go beyond uttering concern.
- Pokepokalypse 7y ago
  we left Turkey in NATO for 20 more years, mainly because, why not? Selling them weapons is hella profitable!
holstvoogd 7y ago
Good point. Frankly, NATO should have been disbanded along side the Warsaw-pact. That being said, the lack off outcry reminds me a lot of a certain period in european history... Appeasement, i.e. we pretend to be surprised about the genocide
wiz21c 7y ago
And we also forget the many refugees kept away from Europe by Erdogan. He'll sure use that as a negotiation tool... https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/10/world/middleeast/turkey-syria-refugees-erdogan.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/10/world/middleeast/turkey-s...
- alpervv 7y ago
  as he should. considering his country is paying up the nose to burden the cost of war on behalf of Europe.

alpervv 7y ago

what genocide are you talking about? Assuming you're American, imagine if Native Americans were to form a separatist organisation with 10,000s of civilian casualties (both kurdish and turkish) over decades. And then imagine if the people has interpreted your actions against this particular group as "genocide". How would you feel?

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

beat 7y ago

That rabbit hole leads to asking why NATO members are considered more moral and enlightened than other nations. Turkey was invited to be a NATO member (and accepted) due to Cold War fear of the USSR, and historic conflicts with Russia. So NATO overlooked Turkey's shortcomings in the interest of realpolitik, and Turkey played nicer in the interest of NATO's reputation.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
empath75 7y ago
Turkey has played (or been played by) shifting allegiances with "the West" and Russia since the late Ottoman Empire. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Question https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Question
exar0815 7y ago
As far as I recall, NATO was always seen as a organization of western democracies. IIRC there are and were only at least nominally democratic countries members - Spain was only admitted after Franco. And genocide was always the line every country drew - e.g. Bosnia, Rwanda...
- luckylion 7y ago
  Neither Bosnia nor Rwanda were ever members (or close to becoming one). Turkey is a very special case, so much so that it's still militarily occupying parts of an EU member state while being a NATO member. The Red Scare and later having millions of loyal voters inside Western Europe are very good playing cards though, and Turkey knows that Europe hates conflict and won't ever go beyond uttering concern.
Pokepokalypse 7y ago
we left Turkey in NATO for 20 more years, mainly because, why not? Selling them weapons is hella profitable!

holstvoogd 7y ago

Good point. Frankly, NATO should have been disbanded along side the Warsaw-pact. That being said, the lack off outcry reminds me a lot of a certain period in european history... Appeasement, i.e. we pretend to be surprised about the genocide

wiz21c 7y ago

And we also forget the many refugees kept away from Europe by Erdogan. He'll sure use that as a negotiation tool... https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/10/world/middleeast/turkey-syria-refugees-erdogan.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/10/world/middleeast/turkey-s...

alpervv 7y ago
as he should. considering his country is paying up the nose to burden the cost of war on behalf of Europe.