3 ms·

Breaking hard loads weight onto the front tyres, which changes handling in every car ever. My car breaking (unexpectedly) when I'm maneuvering (eg around an ob

Breaking hard loads weight onto the front tyres, which changes handling in every car ever. My car breaking (unexpectedly) when I'm maneuvering (eg around an object) means I have no idea who is responsible for the outcome. My decision was overridden by the car.

sokoloff 7y ago
Same is true of ABS and traction control, if you take the view that your decision was to apply this much braking or power to the wheels. Yet ABS and traction/stability control are safer for the vast majority of drivers (who are terribly poorly trained on vehicle dynamics).
- Roark66 7y ago
  >Same is true of ABS and traction control, I have to disagree. After using a car in various slippery conditions the way ABS and traction control works is very predictable. This new system is more like an airbag than ABS. You can't really test it in a controlled environment and get familiar with it. You will be surprised when it activates. The key question everyone is asking is: is it going to be a positive surprise or a negative one?
  - sokoloff 7y ago
    Try ABS on gravel or sandy soil or most traction control systems on wet leaves. It's easy to find a situation where the direct driver input would be preferred over the nanny systems over-riding. (I do agree that overall, they improve safety.)
    - bdamm 7y ago
      It may be easy for you, but I've had a tough time outperforming ABS on ice and leaves. And the ABS of today is better than the ABS of the '90s. In pretty much every case where I've done real-world emergency hard braking I have either appreciated ABS or wished it was there. The last time I drove a vehicle without ABS was riding a motorcycle; if ever there was a candidate for ABS it's motorcycles, yet surprisingly ABS has taken much longer to become standard on bikes. Did I manage to avoid plowing into a fool on the interstate? Yes, and it was thanks to the hours of self training on perfecting my braking technique. Would I prefer not to have worried about it at all, knowing that the bike would pulse the front wheel a hundred times a second and maintaining traction 95% of the time? Absolutely I would. All of my traction tests on severe ice have shown that the ABS does about the same as I can, which is to say, terribly. Drivers should know that ABS can't stop a car that has no traction. That is an education problem, not an ABS problem. If you can reliably reproduce a case where ABS does worse than a driver with a few hours of training, I'm pretty sure that there are some organization that want to talk with you.
      - sokoloff 7y ago
        On any loose gravel drive [or most surfaces where a slid, it's trivial for an untrained driver to out brake an ABS-equipped car 9 (or 10) out of 10 times. Try it sometime. Or read the NHTSA study on it: http://www.nhtsa.gov/DOT/NHTSA/NRD/Multimedia/PDFs/VRTC/ca/capubs/NHTSAabsT4FinalRpt.pdf http://www.nhtsa.gov/DOT/NHTSA/NRD/Multimedia/PDFs/VRTC/ca/c...
        sokoloff 7y ago
        Mangled the text above; it should say “where a sliding tire deforms the surface]”
- Ntrails 7y ago
  I maintain there is a fundamental difference between an electronic system which attempts to aid a car do what the driver has asked, and one which just puts the brakes on hard and without driver input. I know what you're saying, but I think it's a false equivalence.

sokoloff 7y ago

Same is true of ABS and traction control, if you take the view that your decision was to apply this much braking or power to the wheels. Yet ABS and traction/stability control are safer for the vast majority of drivers (who are terribly poorly trained on vehicle dynamics).

Roark66 7y ago
>Same is true of ABS and traction control, I have to disagree. After using a car in various slippery conditions the way ABS and traction control works is very predictable. This new system is more like an airbag than ABS. You can't really test it in a controlled environment and get familiar with it. You will be surprised when it activates. The key question everyone is asking is: is it going to be a positive surprise or a negative one?
- sokoloff 7y ago
  Try ABS on gravel or sandy soil or most traction control systems on wet leaves. It's easy to find a situation where the direct driver input would be preferred over the nanny systems over-riding. (I do agree that overall, they improve safety.)
  - bdamm 7y ago
    It may be easy for you, but I've had a tough time outperforming ABS on ice and leaves. And the ABS of today is better than the ABS of the '90s. In pretty much every case where I've done real-world emergency hard braking I have either appreciated ABS or wished it was there. The last time I drove a vehicle without ABS was riding a motorcycle; if ever there was a candidate for ABS it's motorcycles, yet surprisingly ABS has taken much longer to become standard on bikes. Did I manage to avoid plowing into a fool on the interstate? Yes, and it was thanks to the hours of self training on perfecting my braking technique. Would I prefer not to have worried about it at all, knowing that the bike would pulse the front wheel a hundred times a second and maintaining traction 95% of the time? Absolutely I would. All of my traction tests on severe ice have shown that the ABS does about the same as I can, which is to say, terribly. Drivers should know that ABS can't stop a car that has no traction. That is an education problem, not an ABS problem. If you can reliably reproduce a case where ABS does worse than a driver with a few hours of training, I'm pretty sure that there are some organization that want to talk with you.
    - sokoloff 7y ago
      On any loose gravel drive [or most surfaces where a slid, it's trivial for an untrained driver to out brake an ABS-equipped car 9 (or 10) out of 10 times. Try it sometime. Or read the NHTSA study on it: http://www.nhtsa.gov/DOT/NHTSA/NRD/Multimedia/PDFs/VRTC/ca/capubs/NHTSAabsT4FinalRpt.pdf http://www.nhtsa.gov/DOT/NHTSA/NRD/Multimedia/PDFs/VRTC/ca/c...
      - sokoloff 7y ago
        Mangled the text above; it should say “where a sliding tire deforms the surface]”
Ntrails 7y ago
I maintain there is a fundamental difference between an electronic system which attempts to aid a car do what the driver has asked, and one which just puts the brakes on hard and without driver input. I know what you're saying, but I think it's a false equivalence.