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> iOS and macOS is basically the same OS. I'm aware of that. But they are not exactly the same, are they? > Of course features still need integration to the

> iOS and macOS is basically the same OS. I'm aware of that. But they are not exactly the same, are they? > Of course features still need integration to the respective form factors and UI paradigms. Isn't that what usability and polish are all about? > And yet, Snow Leopard was created exactly because people complained Leopard and earlier were not stable enough. It was the release to focus on stability and polish over new features (and they even admitted this was alluded in the name change, "Leopard" -> "Snow Leopard" as opposed to a whole new version-animal). I know, and that's why we all love Snow Leopard. Why the regression since then? > >They've shown themselves utterly incapable of releasing a quality update each year. > Given that they ship 100 million or so updates, they have almost immediate adoption (far quicker than new Windows version), and the complains always subdue after 1 point release or so, I don't think so. They release updates alright, but what about the quality? The fact is overall, macOS has gotten slower, buggier, and uglier with every release.

coldtea 7y ago
>I'm aware of that. But they are not exactly the same, are they? Yes, in minor ways I already mentioned. >Isn't that what usability and polish are all about? Yes, and as I already wrote: "Apple has done that for both platforms.". You don't get a lesser Metal or a lesser APFS on macOS vs iOS, or less UI integration. >I know, and that's why we all love Snow Leopard. Why the regression since then? I'm not particularly fond of Snow Leopard over other releases, nor I see much "regression since then". There are several legendary Siracusa reviews until Yosemite (after which he passed the torch) here: https://arstechnica.com/author/john-siracusa/ https://arstechnica.com/author/john-siracusa/ Here's e.g. Mavericks: Over the past three years, each successive release of OS X has found its way onto all of my Macs in less time than its predecessor. This year, I may have already gone Mavericks-only across my whole household by the time you read this. Barring any unforeseen bugs or compatibility issues, Mavericks seems like a no-brainer upgrade to me. And here's Yosemite: Viewed in isolation, Yosemite provides a graphical refresh accompanied by a few interesting features and several new technologies whose benefits are mostly speculative, depending heavily on how eagerly they’re adopted by third-party developers. But Apple no longer views the Mac in isolation, and neither should you. OS X is finally a full-fledged peer to iOS; all aspects of sibling rivalry have been banished. Do you see much talk about regression there? There are also post-Siracusa reviews on Ars for each macOS release up to and including Catalina. >They release updates alright, but what about the quality? The fact is overall, macOS has gotten slower, buggier, and uglier with every release. Uglier is pretty subjective if not downright wrong. The new dark mode is great, and the UI is as good as ever. What was better? The skeuomorphic years? The candy colored Aqua years? Slower is easy: it's 100% wrong. In fact, can you show any number of it? If anything, memory compression and battery savings in recent releases made the macOS more performant, and dropping 32bit apps (and double-loading of the same libs for 32/64) even more so... And APFS is also a big improvement over HFS, and Metal is faster than the previous stack and has already given significant performance boost to FCPX and other apps. I'm not sure what exactly you find "slower" then...
- UIZealot 7y ago
  > Yes, and as I already wrote: "Apple has done that for both platforms." Yes I saw it the first time. They certainly did it. But we're talking about how well they did it, aren't we? Usability and polish? > I'm not particularly fond of Snow Leopard over other releases, nor I see much "regression since then". You clearly aren't and clearly don't, but quite a few macOS users are, and do. Here's a sampling of regressions for your perusal: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/11/macos-bug-lets-you-log-in-as-admin-with-no-password-required/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/11/macos... https://furbo.org/2015/05/05/discoveryd-clusterfuck/ https://furbo.org/2015/05/05/discoveryd-clusterfuck/ > Uglier is pretty subjective if not downright wrong. If you like the new looks, good for you I guess. > Slower is easy: it's 100% wrong. In fact, can you show any number of it? I don't have any numbers. What I do have, is the experience running these successive releases on the same laptop. And it has definitely not been positive.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    >Yes I saw it the first time. They certainly did it. But we're talking about how well they did it, aren't we? Usability and polish? Can you be specific? What exactly is the problem with "usability" and "polish" of said features I've mentioned, like Metal, APFS, Swift, SwingUI, etc? The only credible example I could think of that's unpolished is Catalyst (for porting iOS apps to Mac, unified backend) which is a work in progress... >You clearly aren't and clearly don't, but quite a few macOS users are, and do. Bad for them I guess. I, however, linked to a pro and well respected OS X reviewer, so there's that... >Here's a sampling of regressions for your perusal: I can give you tons of reports like those for any version you wish. Here's from an article about the myth of the "stable" Snow Leopard: "Initial experiences with Snow Leopard weren’t as blissful as more recent commentary remembers. The troubled rollout of MobileMe, iCloud’s precursor, was still an open wound. Soon after release, a major bug was discovered in Snow Leopard that would cause the home directories of guest accounts to be wiped completely. The issue was prevalent enough that Apple publicly responded and later issued an update, 10.6.2, to address the problem. Early updates to Snow Leopard were packed with fixes to a long list of bugs. A 2009 article from iLounge on Snow Leopard’s reliability is filled with comments from frustrated users, some considering moving back to Leopard. Time heals all wounds, right?" https://9to5mac.com/2018/01/31/snow-leopard-became-reliability-legend/ https://9to5mac.com/2018/01/31/snow-leopard-became-reliabili... >If you like the new looks, good for you I guess. Are there many people on record that they don't like them? I've never read any major complaints about the "new looks" anywhere. In fact the Dark Mode was almost universally praised... Not to mention the "new looks" are just incremental evolution (and mostly refinement) of how OS X looked since forever. What exactly don't you like? Anything concrete? Prefer this look? (10.2): https://zdnet4.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/2014/07/31/deed4628-185f-11e4-8460-00505685119a/b5cd755319a11936c65126af169448d6/mac-os-jag-i1.gif https://zdnet4.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/2014/07/31/deed4628-185f... Or this (10.4): http://blandname.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/mac-os-x-1047-server-screenshot.png http://blandname.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/mac-os-x-104... Or maybe this (Snow Leopard): https://cdn.arstechnica.net/20090828/snow-leopard-leak.png https://cdn.arstechnica.net/20090828/snow-leopard-leak.png I'll take this at any day: https://media.idownloadblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/macOS-Catalina-System-Preferences-Apple-ID-hero-001.jpg https://media.idownloadblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/m... (Not to mention the dark mode) >I don't have any numbers. What I do have, is the experience running these successive releases on the same laptop. And it has definitely not been positive. Whatever...

coldtea 7y ago

>I'm aware of that. But they are not exactly the same, are they? Yes, in minor ways I already mentioned. >Isn't that what usability and polish are all about? Yes, and as I already wrote: "Apple has done that for both platforms.". You don't get a lesser Metal or a lesser APFS on macOS vs iOS, or less UI integration. >I know, and that's why we all love Snow Leopard. Why the regression since then? I'm not particularly fond of Snow Leopard over other releases, nor I see much "regression since then". There are several legendary Siracusa reviews until Yosemite (after which he passed the torch) here: https://arstechnica.com/author/john-siracusa/ https://arstechnica.com/author/john-siracusa/ Here's e.g. Mavericks: Over the past three years, each successive release of OS X has found its way onto all of my Macs in less time than its predecessor. This year, I may have already gone Mavericks-only across my whole household by the time you read this. Barring any unforeseen bugs or compatibility issues, Mavericks seems like a no-brainer upgrade to me. And here's Yosemite: Viewed in isolation, Yosemite provides a graphical refresh accompanied by a few interesting features and several new technologies whose benefits are mostly speculative, depending heavily on how eagerly they’re adopted by third-party developers. But Apple no longer views the Mac in isolation, and neither should you. OS X is finally a full-fledged peer to iOS; all aspects of sibling rivalry have been banished. Do you see much talk about regression there? There are also post-Siracusa reviews on Ars for each macOS release up to and including Catalina. >They release updates alright, but what about the quality? The fact is overall, macOS has gotten slower, buggier, and uglier with every release. Uglier is pretty subjective if not downright wrong. The new dark mode is great, and the UI is as good as ever. What was better? The skeuomorphic years? The candy colored Aqua years? Slower is easy: it's 100% wrong. In fact, can you show any number of it? If anything, memory compression and battery savings in recent releases made the macOS more performant, and dropping 32bit apps (and double-loading of the same libs for 32/64) even more so... And APFS is also a big improvement over HFS, and Metal is faster than the previous stack and has already given significant performance boost to FCPX and other apps. I'm not sure what exactly you find "slower" then...

UIZealot 7y ago
> Yes, and as I already wrote: "Apple has done that for both platforms." Yes I saw it the first time. They certainly did it. But we're talking about how well they did it, aren't we? Usability and polish? > I'm not particularly fond of Snow Leopard over other releases, nor I see much "regression since then". You clearly aren't and clearly don't, but quite a few macOS users are, and do. Here's a sampling of regressions for your perusal: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/11/macos-bug-lets-you-log-in-as-admin-with-no-password-required/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/11/macos... https://furbo.org/2015/05/05/discoveryd-clusterfuck/ https://furbo.org/2015/05/05/discoveryd-clusterfuck/ > Uglier is pretty subjective if not downright wrong. If you like the new looks, good for you I guess. > Slower is easy: it's 100% wrong. In fact, can you show any number of it? I don't have any numbers. What I do have, is the experience running these successive releases on the same laptop. And it has definitely not been positive.
- coldtea 7y ago
  >Yes I saw it the first time. They certainly did it. But we're talking about how well they did it, aren't we? Usability and polish? Can you be specific? What exactly is the problem with "usability" and "polish" of said features I've mentioned, like Metal, APFS, Swift, SwingUI, etc? The only credible example I could think of that's unpolished is Catalyst (for porting iOS apps to Mac, unified backend) which is a work in progress... >You clearly aren't and clearly don't, but quite a few macOS users are, and do. Bad for them I guess. I, however, linked to a pro and well respected OS X reviewer, so there's that... >Here's a sampling of regressions for your perusal: I can give you tons of reports like those for any version you wish. Here's from an article about the myth of the "stable" Snow Leopard: "Initial experiences with Snow Leopard weren’t as blissful as more recent commentary remembers. The troubled rollout of MobileMe, iCloud’s precursor, was still an open wound. Soon after release, a major bug was discovered in Snow Leopard that would cause the home directories of guest accounts to be wiped completely. The issue was prevalent enough that Apple publicly responded and later issued an update, 10.6.2, to address the problem. Early updates to Snow Leopard were packed with fixes to a long list of bugs. A 2009 article from iLounge on Snow Leopard’s reliability is filled with comments from frustrated users, some considering moving back to Leopard. Time heals all wounds, right?" https://9to5mac.com/2018/01/31/snow-leopard-became-reliability-legend/ https://9to5mac.com/2018/01/31/snow-leopard-became-reliabili... >If you like the new looks, good for you I guess. Are there many people on record that they don't like them? I've never read any major complaints about the "new looks" anywhere. In fact the Dark Mode was almost universally praised... Not to mention the "new looks" are just incremental evolution (and mostly refinement) of how OS X looked since forever. What exactly don't you like? Anything concrete? Prefer this look? (10.2): https://zdnet4.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/2014/07/31/deed4628-185f-11e4-8460-00505685119a/b5cd755319a11936c65126af169448d6/mac-os-jag-i1.gif https://zdnet4.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/2014/07/31/deed4628-185f... Or this (10.4): http://blandname.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/mac-os-x-1047-server-screenshot.png http://blandname.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/mac-os-x-104... Or maybe this (Snow Leopard): https://cdn.arstechnica.net/20090828/snow-leopard-leak.png https://cdn.arstechnica.net/20090828/snow-leopard-leak.png I'll take this at any day: https://media.idownloadblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/macOS-Catalina-System-Preferences-Apple-ID-hero-001.jpg https://media.idownloadblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/m... (Not to mention the dark mode) >I don't have any numbers. What I do have, is the experience running these successive releases on the same laptop. And it has definitely not been positive. Whatever...