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I have a friend whose family is Swedish and is a fan of Sven and Ollie jokes. It's not very charged when he tells them, even though they are technically jokes a

I have a friend whose family is Swedish and is a fan of Sven and Ollie jokes. It's not very charged when he tells them, even though they are technically jokes about nationalities. I've often wondered, why is it harder to muster outrage over those? Best I can figure, racism has more salience when you are magnifying harms to historically marginalized groups. Not saying it's ever noble, but situations vary, so impacts vary.

kthejoker2 7y ago
I don't know that it's racist to have universal jokes with two stock characters and to choose common names for them? I'm sure some of those same jokes showed up on a McKenzie Brothers skit or Sanford and Son or Flight of the Conchords or Rahmens or Alternatino without loss of generality. It's because the context is always "these characters are stupid" not "people like these characters are stupid." And thinking about it more, I think the key difference is they have a name. That alone makes them a unique person. It's not "black guys do this, white guys do that" or even "an Irishman walks into a bar." Giving them a name means you can distance yourself from them and not feel offended that Sven is stupid, whereas if it was "A dumb Swede" you'd be offended.
- brownbat 7y ago
  My Swedish and Norwegian friends see the characters as stand-ins for nationalities, but sure, happy to ditch that hypo if you don't find it compelling. It was just one possible illustration of the broader point: the salience of racism seems at least somewhat related to the extent of the harm, and the harms from racism aren't evenly distributed. I could see someone endorsing the view that racism is always wrong and yet still worse in some situations. Like, stealing a loaf of bread from a baker is wrong, but stealing a loaf of bread from a starving family is especially cruel. I'm not an expert here or anything. I don't want to come off like I have it all figured out, I don't.
- lazyasciiart 7y ago
  A name doesn't mean people are considering them as individuals. Famous examples of named 'stereotype representatives' include Paddy for the Irish (https://thomasnastcartoons.com/irish-catholic-cartoons/irish-stereotype/ https://thomasnastcartoons.com/irish-catholic-cartoons/irish...), and Jerry for the Germans.

kthejoker2 7y ago

I don't know that it's racist to have universal jokes with two stock characters and to choose common names for them? I'm sure some of those same jokes showed up on a McKenzie Brothers skit or Sanford and Son or Flight of the Conchords or Rahmens or Alternatino without loss of generality. It's because the context is always "these characters are stupid" not "people like these characters are stupid." And thinking about it more, I think the key difference is they have a name. That alone makes them a unique person. It's not "black guys do this, white guys do that" or even "an Irishman walks into a bar." Giving them a name means you can distance yourself from them and not feel offended that Sven is stupid, whereas if it was "A dumb Swede" you'd be offended.

brownbat 7y ago
My Swedish and Norwegian friends see the characters as stand-ins for nationalities, but sure, happy to ditch that hypo if you don't find it compelling. It was just one possible illustration of the broader point: the salience of racism seems at least somewhat related to the extent of the harm, and the harms from racism aren't evenly distributed. I could see someone endorsing the view that racism is always wrong and yet still worse in some situations. Like, stealing a loaf of bread from a baker is wrong, but stealing a loaf of bread from a starving family is especially cruel. I'm not an expert here or anything. I don't want to come off like I have it all figured out, I don't.
lazyasciiart 7y ago
A name doesn't mean people are considering them as individuals. Famous examples of named 'stereotype representatives' include Paddy for the Irish (https://thomasnastcartoons.com/irish-catholic-cartoons/irish-stereotype/ https://thomasnastcartoons.com/irish-catholic-cartoons/irish...), and Jerry for the Germans.