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The value in libra isn't in some novel technical concept. From what I have seen they made some ugly trade-offs to make the whole thing scale, invented their own

The value in libra isn't in some novel technical concept. From what I have seen they made some ugly trade-offs to make the whole thing scale, invented their own not-state-of-the-art BFT algorithm and invented a new programming language for smart contracts that looks a bit saner than the EVM stuff. The real selling point is the partnership with major payment services, CC companies etc. If it succeeds you might be able to pay with libra at every POS terminal and that would be huge. If the base layer is as permissionless as advertised that could even be used to build proxies that allow Bitcoin payments at every POS terminal. The second interesting idea is the monetary basket backing it. That would take some control out of government's hands and would discourage overly reckless money printing since people would have a damn easy way of both detecting it (e.g. looking at the Libra/€ price) and opting out (buying Libra). If all big fiat currencies aren't stable enough even gold or BTC could be chosen as a backing asset. If OpenLibra can't replicate this they have a totally worthless project, not much different from all the other altcoins out there.

pjc50 7y ago
> looking at the Libra/€ price But that's affected mostly by factors other than money supply? > all big fiat currencies aren't stable enough even gold or BTC BTC does not provide price stability. Hardly anyone quotes long term fixed prices in BTC, they quote them in USD/BTC spot converted prices. You can see this in how BTC has tracked up and down against the dollar across a huge range.
- sgeisler 7y ago
  > But that's affected mostly by factors other than money supply? That's a good point. I think the "mostly" is highly dependent on the rate of "money printing" and where exactly this money goes. But the Libra/Fiat rate might not be necessary anymore as an indicator once it becomes a useful indicator because of rising consumer good prices. > BTC does not provide price stability. If bitcoin gets adopted more widely and has a bigger market cap the volatility should go down. The supply shocks every ~4y due to the block reward halving are getting smaller too. But sure, a free market money will never be as stable as a currency with central bank interference. For me that's not a bug but a feature, it doesn't shield market participants from economic realities, so they can actually adapt.
  - eru 7y ago
    The block reward halving shouldn't shock anything: it's perfectly predictable. Btw, free market currencies can be much more stable than central bank currencies. See eg https://www.alt-m.org/2015/07/29/there-was-no-place-like-canada/ https://www.alt-m.org/2015/07/29/there-was-no-place-like-can...
throwawaylolx 7y ago
>The real selling point is the partnership with major payment services, CC companies etc. Well, about that: PayPal pulls out of Facebook's Libra cryptocurrency: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/oct/07/paypal-pulls-out-facebook-libra-cryptocurrency https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/oct/07/paypal-pu... Visa, Mastercard, Others Reconsider Involvement in Facebook's Libra Network: https://www.wsj.com/articles/visa-mastercard-others-reconsider-involvement-in-facebook-s-libra-network-11569967023 https://www.wsj.com/articles/visa-mastercard-others-reconsid...
josh2600 7y ago
What do you think is not-state-of-the-art about LibraBFT?
- sgeisler 7y ago
  My main disappointment was that it's synchronous. Synchronous BFT algorithms seem like an old and already solved problem, with many already existing implementations. So I don't see exactly why you'd develop your own, especially since it's quite hard to get right. Maybe I missed some revolutionary performance increases back when I read the paper. Imo async BFT algos are much more interesting since they can actually fit the attacker model of an open network like the internet. Nobody can give you any guarantees (in an absolute sense) about message delivery times and hops can arbitrarily delay your messages.
neffy 7y ago
Linking to a monetary basked is another idea borrowed from economics that is based on the less than accurate understanding there of how monetary systems actually work. I suspect the reason other financial companies are withdrawing is that they´ve looked at the practical implications.
- eru 7y ago
  > Linking to a monetary basked is another idea borrowed from economics that is based on the less than accurate understanding there of how monetary systems actually work. What do you mean? That's essentially how index-fund ETFs work. Is there a reason you think it's not suitable for a currency?

pjc50 7y ago

> looking at the Libra/€ price But that's affected mostly by factors other than money supply? > all big fiat currencies aren't stable enough even gold or BTC BTC does not provide price stability. Hardly anyone quotes long term fixed prices in BTC, they quote them in USD/BTC spot converted prices. You can see this in how BTC has tracked up and down against the dollar across a huge range.

sgeisler 7y ago
> But that's affected mostly by factors other than money supply? That's a good point. I think the "mostly" is highly dependent on the rate of "money printing" and where exactly this money goes. But the Libra/Fiat rate might not be necessary anymore as an indicator once it becomes a useful indicator because of rising consumer good prices. > BTC does not provide price stability. If bitcoin gets adopted more widely and has a bigger market cap the volatility should go down. The supply shocks every ~4y due to the block reward halving are getting smaller too. But sure, a free market money will never be as stable as a currency with central bank interference. For me that's not a bug but a feature, it doesn't shield market participants from economic realities, so they can actually adapt.
- eru 7y ago
  The block reward halving shouldn't shock anything: it's perfectly predictable. Btw, free market currencies can be much more stable than central bank currencies. See eg https://www.alt-m.org/2015/07/29/there-was-no-place-like-canada/ https://www.alt-m.org/2015/07/29/there-was-no-place-like-can...

throwawaylolx 7y ago

>The real selling point is the partnership with major payment services, CC companies etc. Well, about that: PayPal pulls out of Facebook's Libra cryptocurrency: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/oct/07/paypal-pulls-out-facebook-libra-cryptocurrency https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/oct/07/paypal-pu... Visa, Mastercard, Others Reconsider Involvement in Facebook's Libra Network: https://www.wsj.com/articles/visa-mastercard-others-reconsider-involvement-in-facebook-s-libra-network-11569967023 https://www.wsj.com/articles/visa-mastercard-others-reconsid...

josh2600 7y ago

What do you think is not-state-of-the-art about LibraBFT?

sgeisler 7y ago
My main disappointment was that it's synchronous. Synchronous BFT algorithms seem like an old and already solved problem, with many already existing implementations. So I don't see exactly why you'd develop your own, especially since it's quite hard to get right. Maybe I missed some revolutionary performance increases back when I read the paper. Imo async BFT algos are much more interesting since they can actually fit the attacker model of an open network like the internet. Nobody can give you any guarantees (in an absolute sense) about message delivery times and hops can arbitrarily delay your messages.

neffy 7y ago

Linking to a monetary basked is another idea borrowed from economics that is based on the less than accurate understanding there of how monetary systems actually work. I suspect the reason other financial companies are withdrawing is that they´ve looked at the practical implications.

eru 7y ago
> Linking to a monetary basked is another idea borrowed from economics that is based on the less than accurate understanding there of how monetary systems actually work. What do you mean? That's essentially how index-fund ETFs work. Is there a reason you think it's not suitable for a currency?