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Apple seems to be forgetting their own credo against nag-based security: https://i.imgur.com/qbUy5aH.png https://i.imgur.com/qbUy5aH.png (from an ancient WWDC

Apple seems to be forgetting their own credo against nag-based security: https://i.imgur.com/qbUy5aH.png https://i.imgur.com/qbUy5aH.png (from an ancient WWDC slide mocking the Windows approach.) They may have overdone it in a few cases, and not done anything where it's really needed (like a unified list of all third-party startup items, such as Google’s sneaky Keystone malware, or seeing all outgoing data and connection attempts like Little Snitch shows), but as other commenters have mentioned, it lets me catch various apps overreaching into my computer for things they just don't need to function, and I definitely appreciate that. Another thing I wish they would do is provide an infallible way to verify system password request dialogs. Not long ago DropBox used to show you a fake dialog that then stole your administrator password. There should be a list inside System Preferences where you can go and see all the authentic password request dialogs that are currently being shown. In short, they should move away from nagging to better monitoring and reporting.

dtech 7y ago
The "nagging" approach seems to work well on mobile, at least with targeted permissions. I don't know how it is on iOS, but this seems very similar.
trymas 7y ago
> Not long ago DropBox used to show you a fake dialog that then stole your administrator password. Wow. What the hell? Can you provide any sources to read about this more?
- JustFinishedBSG 7y ago
  https://applehelpwriter.com/2016/07/28/revealing-dropboxs-dirty-little-security-hack/ https://applehelpwriter.com/2016/07/28/revealing-dropboxs-di... Dropbox imitated a system dialog box in order to get your password to give itself system level permissions without asking you.
  - trymas 7y ago
    Thank you. I am speechless on the behaviour from DropBox. I wonder why I have never heard of this and I do not remember any major security scandal regarding DropBox stealing your admin passwords, but maybe that information just went around me for some reason.. :) EDIT: I wonder how this was implemented, I imagine that any app, can recreate a pixel perfect dialog imitating system dialog asking for password and steal your sensitive information, though how can app add itself to accessibility list programatically? I am not knowledgable of MacOS API and somehow I think apps should be prevented to be able to do this on their own. Was it a MacOS security bug? What else DropBox did "under the hood" with admin password that we do not know of yet?
    - pilif 7y ago
      It was the OS dialog which allows apps to customize the prompt text. No need to fake anything. That article was wrong. Check the HN discussion from back in the day
  - pilif 7y ago
    Only, it wasn’t a fake dialog. This is the normal OS sudo dialog which has API to allow the prompt text to be set by the application. The text could have been more specific what they need root rights for and how necessary the root rights are for continued usage, but they did not fake the dialog. It’s so hard to correct wrong information from the past. Even though discussion stemming from that article has shown that it was the system dialog, all people remember is the misinformation (albeit possibly inadvertent misinformation)
  - fulldecent2 7y ago
    Safari is also vulnerable to phishing popups that are indistinguishable from Apple popups. https://privacylog.blogspot.com/2019/06/safari-zero-day-any-website-can-request.html https://privacylog.blogspot.com/2019/06/safari-zero-day-any-...
yabadabadoes 7y ago
> Another thing I wish they would do is provide an infallible way to verify system password request dialogs. You are requesting trusted path (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_path https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_path) for windows the ctrl-alt-delete sequence is apparently used to implement their trusted path, so it should have been designed to foreground its own active windows, minimize non trusted windows, or similar.
- als0 7y ago
  In my experience, Trusted path and Trusted UI tend to fail due to significant UX challenges. It tends to be quirky and require user training.
  - yabadabadoes 7y ago
    In my experience, this could be said for virtually every security feature, particularly when new to users. But I still find it worthwhile to fully/correctly implement security features even if they might not be correctly used. Many correct security features have gradually become commonly understood in most communities to everyone's benefit, while most short cuts have eventually caused major problems that are made doubly bad by reputable firms having invested in training users to accept a solution that could only be implemented in snake oil.
jve 7y ago
> https://i.imgur.com/qbUy5aH.png https://i.imgur.com/qbUy5aH.png (from an ancient WWDC slide mocking the Windows approach.) That's funny
- Razengan 7y ago
  Cancel or Allow? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxOIebkmrqs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxOIebkmrqs
benzoate 7y ago
The Apple dialogs fwiw are at least easy to understand, and are distinctive for each security nag type. Having used Catalina in public beta over the last month it really does not feel like using Windows Vista, you get asked once for each application and after that, nada. The experience would be far better if macOS did not re-launch every open application after installing a major OS update so that the dialogs could be drip-fed as each app was used. I do agree that better monitoring and reporting would be better, but these nags are for basic folder access and notifications. I do find it strange however that macOS now requires permission for an app to send notifications, whereas it is no longer required to provisionally send notifications to a user on iOS (until they turn them off).
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Razengan 7y ago
For those curious about the WWDC session that slide is from, I can't find the exact session and timestamp right now, but the same things were said as far back as WWDC 2011, in Session 203: "Introducing App Sandbox" Which..is a little harder to access now: https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/387070/apple-has-just-unlisted-all-its-2010-2011-videos-what-now-for-the-broken-links https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/387070/apple-has-ju...

dtech 7y ago

The "nagging" approach seems to work well on mobile, at least with targeted permissions. I don't know how it is on iOS, but this seems very similar.

trymas 7y ago

> Not long ago DropBox used to show you a fake dialog that then stole your administrator password. Wow. What the hell? Can you provide any sources to read about this more?

JustFinishedBSG 7y ago
https://applehelpwriter.com/2016/07/28/revealing-dropboxs-dirty-little-security-hack/ https://applehelpwriter.com/2016/07/28/revealing-dropboxs-di... Dropbox imitated a system dialog box in order to get your password to give itself system level permissions without asking you.
- trymas 7y ago
  Thank you. I am speechless on the behaviour from DropBox. I wonder why I have never heard of this and I do not remember any major security scandal regarding DropBox stealing your admin passwords, but maybe that information just went around me for some reason.. :) EDIT: I wonder how this was implemented, I imagine that any app, can recreate a pixel perfect dialog imitating system dialog asking for password and steal your sensitive information, though how can app add itself to accessibility list programatically? I am not knowledgable of MacOS API and somehow I think apps should be prevented to be able to do this on their own. Was it a MacOS security bug? What else DropBox did "under the hood" with admin password that we do not know of yet?
  - pilif 7y ago
    It was the OS dialog which allows apps to customize the prompt text. No need to fake anything. That article was wrong. Check the HN discussion from back in the day
- pilif 7y ago
  Only, it wasn’t a fake dialog. This is the normal OS sudo dialog which has API to allow the prompt text to be set by the application. The text could have been more specific what they need root rights for and how necessary the root rights are for continued usage, but they did not fake the dialog. It’s so hard to correct wrong information from the past. Even though discussion stemming from that article has shown that it was the system dialog, all people remember is the misinformation (albeit possibly inadvertent misinformation)
- fulldecent2 7y ago
  Safari is also vulnerable to phishing popups that are indistinguishable from Apple popups. https://privacylog.blogspot.com/2019/06/safari-zero-day-any-website-can-request.html https://privacylog.blogspot.com/2019/06/safari-zero-day-any-...

yabadabadoes 7y ago

> Another thing I wish they would do is provide an infallible way to verify system password request dialogs. You are requesting trusted path (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_path https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_path) for windows the ctrl-alt-delete sequence is apparently used to implement their trusted path, so it should have been designed to foreground its own active windows, minimize non trusted windows, or similar.

als0 7y ago
In my experience, Trusted path and Trusted UI tend to fail due to significant UX challenges. It tends to be quirky and require user training.
- yabadabadoes 7y ago
  In my experience, this could be said for virtually every security feature, particularly when new to users. But I still find it worthwhile to fully/correctly implement security features even if they might not be correctly used. Many correct security features have gradually become commonly understood in most communities to everyone's benefit, while most short cuts have eventually caused major problems that are made doubly bad by reputable firms having invested in training users to accept a solution that could only be implemented in snake oil.

jve 7y ago

> https://i.imgur.com/qbUy5aH.png https://i.imgur.com/qbUy5aH.png (from an ancient WWDC slide mocking the Windows approach.) That's funny

Razengan 7y ago
Cancel or Allow? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxOIebkmrqs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxOIebkmrqs

benzoate 7y ago

The Apple dialogs fwiw are at least easy to understand, and are distinctive for each security nag type. Having used Catalina in public beta over the last month it really does not feel like using Windows Vista, you get asked once for each application and after that, nada. The experience would be far better if macOS did not re-launch every open application after installing a major OS update so that the dialogs could be drip-fed as each app was used. I do agree that better monitoring and reporting would be better, but these nags are for basic folder access and notifications. I do find it strange however that macOS now requires permission for an app to send notifications, whereas it is no longer required to provisionally send notifications to a user on iOS (until they turn them off).

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

Razengan 7y ago

For those curious about the WWDC session that slide is from, I can't find the exact session and timestamp right now, but the same things were said as far back as WWDC 2011, in Session 203: "Introducing App Sandbox" Which..is a little harder to access now: https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/387070/apple-has-just-unlisted-all-its-2010-2011-videos-what-now-for-the-broken-links https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/387070/apple-has-ju...