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This isn’t a “step forward in user privacy” or whatever the others here are saying. It’s a mess and very poorly executed UX. Users will tend to feel overwhelme

This isn’t a “step forward in user privacy” or whatever the others here are saying. It’s a mess and very poorly executed UX. Users will tend to feel overwhelmed and just click through modals when they are presented in this way. Displaying stacks of modals is an anti-pattern. The right thing to do would have been to create a migration UX that allows quick review and audit of application permissions, presented in a table, sorted by applications that are requesting the most permissions. With a clear explanation of what’s happening and why a review is now needed. That would be a step forward in user privacy and informed consent. Anyone defending such an abomination of UX should have their software designing license revoked.

hkai 7y ago
But that's a one time thing. When you're doing an OS upgrade, I guess you're expecting some extra work. Your also have to reinstall xcode, update other apps etc.
- daveFNbuck 7y ago
  I still don't know why I always have to reinstall xcode. It's very annoying.
  - w0utert 7y ago
    For one, it needs to install the SDK's for the new deployment target you just installed (be it macOS or iOS), and update the toolchain so it can build for it. It's mildly annoying, but the alternative would be to let you continue using the old version pegged to an older deployment target, and let you figure out all the incompatibilities at once when you decide you want release your app to the app store. IMO this would be much more annoying than just getting a coffee once while you wait for the upgrade.
    - vetinari 7y ago
      He said reinstall, not upgrade. For example, Xcode 11, which has 10.15 SDK target, can be installed on Mojave. This has been the case for years, the new Xcode can run on the n-1 OS release. So why reinstall it, after the system is updated?
    - daveFNbuck 7y ago
      Another alternative would be to upgrade xcode as part of the OS upgrade so all of my apps continue to work without me having to figure out this extra undocumented step. I'm not even using xcode. I just need the latest command-line tools for everything else to work.
- vbezhenar 7y ago
  That's why I never upgrade a system. I'm always reinstalling it from scratch. First: I'm going happy path and not encountering any migration issues, which might be buried deep below. Second: I'm getting rid of unused apps and files. Third: I'm testing my backups and ensuring that things are good. Fourth: I just love to see pristine clean system.
judge2020 7y ago
FWIW, every program looks like one that usually is set to start at startup; the intent is to have the dialogue only show up when you start an app for the first time. Since so many background apps were running at startup they all slowly needed to ask for their permissions. > create a migration UX Might not be possible if the previous MacOS isn't full-on tracking what folders a program is accessing, and it still would likely encourage allowing all permissions if the user has more than 30 different programs accessing enough folders.
- oconnore 7y ago
  If you were ok running your previous apps you should also be ok with gathering usage data for a week before the OS attempts to do a hard cut-over to a more secure model.
  - thirtyseven 7y ago
    It seems like this would be very difficult to implement securely. You basically would have to preserve the old, unsafe mode and hope that nobody circumvents whatever restrictions you put in place to make sure that it only applies to the pre-migration apps .
    - judge2020 7y ago
      If all of 10.14 were tracking it there probably wouldn't be much issue, but i'll bet the average MacOS user doesn't have more than 5 startups apps that would show this dialogue; that combined with this happening exactly once during the upgrade process means it's not a big priority for Apple to address.
- vincnetas 7y ago
  Have a migration tool window with table where all requests are appended instead of popup being displayed. Blink that tool anytime a new requests comes in, have explanations on migration tool window. Apps who ask for permission will be hanging in background until you approve/deny permissions from migration tool. You can do migrations on your time when you need particular app, and not be forced to choose permissions for all apps at once.
keyle 7y ago
> should have their software designing license revoked. Dang it, I never filed for one. Hey Clippy, where do I get one of those... > Hi I'm Clippy! It looks like you're trying to make a joke. Do you need some assistance? Clippy would like permission to invade your screen after you summoned him. /s
- lone_haxx0r 7y ago
  Luckily, lawyers and bureaucrats don't have that much power over this industry, yet.
  - GhettoMaestro 7y ago
    Areas that come to mind that are legal-liability driven would be things like health-care, aircraft flight control systems, etc. In those industries, they do have strict software regulations already. Otherwise, free market baby.
- fbnlsr 7y ago
  Unrelated, are you keyle from the old demoscene days? If so nice to see you here, we haven't talked in 15 years. - ks
  - keyle 7y ago
    hey fabian :)
threeseed 7y ago
These are all new permissions. So there is no database of applications that need access to read/write Documents or Pictures. So a UI like you are suggesting is not technically possible to create.
- ssalka 7y ago
  Maybe we have different understandings of how that UI would work, but I imagine it to be totally possible: Take all the windows/notifications from OP's screenshot, map each of them to a row in a table, group by application. Show all this info in 1 modal, call it Migration Assistant.
  - robin_reala 7y ago
    The notification is thrown at the point of need. Some will appear when the application is first started, but some will only appear if the app is directed to a specific state by the user.
    - lovelyviking 7y ago
      Still you can direct user to one list of apps/permissions each time those needs to be tuned, where user can review all permissions associated with particular app and decide whether to turn them on or off. How can you do that with endless dialogs and how can you review what you've allowed later, after dialog disappeared ...
      - robin_reala 7y ago
        You can review later by going to System Preferences / Security & Privacy / Privacy, then looking at the various permissions to see what apps have been allowed.
- lovelyviking 7y ago
  If there are all new permissions, then it should be technically possible to create a list of ALL those new permissions and present that list to the user with apps requiring those permissions. What is so "not technically possible" there ... ? Actually in iOS you have list of apps with permissions in settings. At least something like that would be better then endless popups, which should be prohibited completely in _any_ interface, if you ask me. I am making effort to avoid any jumping dialogs in my apps,but now OS itself does it for me ... sad
blub 7y ago
It's a huge step forward, because some of the bad actors that have ruined mobile by abusing every possible API to read whatever they can get their hands on are also developing for the desktop. The article is a pathological example anyway, because I got zero prompts even on my work machine. And Vista was a good step forward also back then, but people can't be bothered to take care of their data. This is why security work is such a slog, you're dealing with motivated, well funded attackers that only need to succeed once, while the people controlling the key to the castle are mostly nincompoops.
- jiofih 7y ago
  Any chance you work in corporate IT security? Sounds about right. Treat your users like dummies, maybe shove a dozen “security” dialogs in their faces, and have no qualms about disrupting their workflows or providing crappy experiences.
  - 72deluxe 7y ago
    But what experience would you recommend here instead? If 2 programs that require access start 5 minutes apart, do you stop/suspend the first one until another program starts and then show a dialog listing both for a good "experience"? What happens if another doesn't start for a while? Do you show the dialog after a certain time period? How can it see into the future and know what other program you are going to run in order to show the items in a nice neat single-window list? Or do you show multiple dialog prompts (like in the screenshot) because there is no way of knowing what disparate applications will access at any given time? My experience of corporate IT (having been a subject of someone else's policies) was to have my machine locked down to the maximum because someone somewhere once ran a random EXE they'd been emailed or downloaded and it contained ransomware and encrypted everything it could access (network servers too). As irritating as it was, what would you do to stop that happening again? It was a developer that ran that... This includes "professional" users who saw Edge or IE as "the Internet" and would get "IT" to add an ODBC entry for a database server, despite having worked there for 10 years. Most of my colleagues didn't know the difference between a database server and a terminal server. And this included management. What would you do instead then??

hkai 7y ago

But that's a one time thing. When you're doing an OS upgrade, I guess you're expecting some extra work. Your also have to reinstall xcode, update other apps etc.

daveFNbuck 7y ago
I still don't know why I always have to reinstall xcode. It's very annoying.
- w0utert 7y ago
  For one, it needs to install the SDK's for the new deployment target you just installed (be it macOS or iOS), and update the toolchain so it can build for it. It's mildly annoying, but the alternative would be to let you continue using the old version pegged to an older deployment target, and let you figure out all the incompatibilities at once when you decide you want release your app to the app store. IMO this would be much more annoying than just getting a coffee once while you wait for the upgrade.
  - vetinari 7y ago
    He said reinstall, not upgrade. For example, Xcode 11, which has 10.15 SDK target, can be installed on Mojave. This has been the case for years, the new Xcode can run on the n-1 OS release. So why reinstall it, after the system is updated?
  - daveFNbuck 7y ago
    Another alternative would be to upgrade xcode as part of the OS upgrade so all of my apps continue to work without me having to figure out this extra undocumented step. I'm not even using xcode. I just need the latest command-line tools for everything else to work.
vbezhenar 7y ago
That's why I never upgrade a system. I'm always reinstalling it from scratch. First: I'm going happy path and not encountering any migration issues, which might be buried deep below. Second: I'm getting rid of unused apps and files. Third: I'm testing my backups and ensuring that things are good. Fourth: I just love to see pristine clean system.

judge2020 7y ago

FWIW, every program looks like one that usually is set to start at startup; the intent is to have the dialogue only show up when you start an app for the first time. Since so many background apps were running at startup they all slowly needed to ask for their permissions. > create a migration UX Might not be possible if the previous MacOS isn't full-on tracking what folders a program is accessing, and it still would likely encourage allowing all permissions if the user has more than 30 different programs accessing enough folders.

oconnore 7y ago
If you were ok running your previous apps you should also be ok with gathering usage data for a week before the OS attempts to do a hard cut-over to a more secure model.
- thirtyseven 7y ago
  It seems like this would be very difficult to implement securely. You basically would have to preserve the old, unsafe mode and hope that nobody circumvents whatever restrictions you put in place to make sure that it only applies to the pre-migration apps .
  - judge2020 7y ago
    If all of 10.14 were tracking it there probably wouldn't be much issue, but i'll bet the average MacOS user doesn't have more than 5 startups apps that would show this dialogue; that combined with this happening exactly once during the upgrade process means it's not a big priority for Apple to address.
vincnetas 7y ago
Have a migration tool window with table where all requests are appended instead of popup being displayed. Blink that tool anytime a new requests comes in, have explanations on migration tool window. Apps who ask for permission will be hanging in background until you approve/deny permissions from migration tool. You can do migrations on your time when you need particular app, and not be forced to choose permissions for all apps at once.

keyle 7y ago

> should have their software designing license revoked. Dang it, I never filed for one. Hey Clippy, where do I get one of those... > Hi I'm Clippy! It looks like you're trying to make a joke. Do you need some assistance? Clippy would like permission to invade your screen after you summoned him. /s

lone_haxx0r 7y ago
Luckily, lawyers and bureaucrats don't have that much power over this industry, yet.
- GhettoMaestro 7y ago
  Areas that come to mind that are legal-liability driven would be things like health-care, aircraft flight control systems, etc. In those industries, they do have strict software regulations already. Otherwise, free market baby.
fbnlsr 7y ago
Unrelated, are you keyle from the old demoscene days? If so nice to see you here, we haven't talked in 15 years. - ks
- keyle 7y ago
  hey fabian :)

threeseed 7y ago

These are all new permissions. So there is no database of applications that need access to read/write Documents or Pictures. So a UI like you are suggesting is not technically possible to create.

ssalka 7y ago
Maybe we have different understandings of how that UI would work, but I imagine it to be totally possible: Take all the windows/notifications from OP's screenshot, map each of them to a row in a table, group by application. Show all this info in 1 modal, call it Migration Assistant.
- robin_reala 7y ago
  The notification is thrown at the point of need. Some will appear when the application is first started, but some will only appear if the app is directed to a specific state by the user.
  - lovelyviking 7y ago
    Still you can direct user to one list of apps/permissions each time those needs to be tuned, where user can review all permissions associated with particular app and decide whether to turn them on or off. How can you do that with endless dialogs and how can you review what you've allowed later, after dialog disappeared ...
    - robin_reala 7y ago
      You can review later by going to System Preferences / Security & Privacy / Privacy, then looking at the various permissions to see what apps have been allowed.
lovelyviking 7y ago
If there are all new permissions, then it should be technically possible to create a list of ALL those new permissions and present that list to the user with apps requiring those permissions. What is so "not technically possible" there ... ? Actually in iOS you have list of apps with permissions in settings. At least something like that would be better then endless popups, which should be prohibited completely in _any_ interface, if you ask me. I am making effort to avoid any jumping dialogs in my apps,but now OS itself does it for me ... sad

blub 7y ago

It's a huge step forward, because some of the bad actors that have ruined mobile by abusing every possible API to read whatever they can get their hands on are also developing for the desktop. The article is a pathological example anyway, because I got zero prompts even on my work machine. And Vista was a good step forward also back then, but people can't be bothered to take care of their data. This is why security work is such a slog, you're dealing with motivated, well funded attackers that only need to succeed once, while the people controlling the key to the castle are mostly nincompoops.

jiofih 7y ago
Any chance you work in corporate IT security? Sounds about right. Treat your users like dummies, maybe shove a dozen “security” dialogs in their faces, and have no qualms about disrupting their workflows or providing crappy experiences.
- 72deluxe 7y ago
  But what experience would you recommend here instead? If 2 programs that require access start 5 minutes apart, do you stop/suspend the first one until another program starts and then show a dialog listing both for a good "experience"? What happens if another doesn't start for a while? Do you show the dialog after a certain time period? How can it see into the future and know what other program you are going to run in order to show the items in a nice neat single-window list? Or do you show multiple dialog prompts (like in the screenshot) because there is no way of knowing what disparate applications will access at any given time? My experience of corporate IT (having been a subject of someone else's policies) was to have my machine locked down to the maximum because someone somewhere once ran a random EXE they'd been emailed or downloaded and it contained ransomware and encrypted everything it could access (network servers too). As irritating as it was, what would you do to stop that happening again? It was a developer that ran that... This includes "professional" users who saw Edge or IE as "the Internet" and would get "IT" to add an ODBC entry for a database server, despite having worked there for 10 years. Most of my colleagues didn't know the difference between a database server and a terminal server. And this included management. What would you do instead then??