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China doesn't want a deal. They only want to continue to exploit the US. So the US is gradually decoupling from them.

by 99_00 7y ago

Consultant32452 7y ago
They're literally killing us by the tens of thousands every year. It seems like every week there's some story about a Chinese product with Mercury or other poisons. Recently we caught them smuggling enough fentanyl through our southern border to kill a billion people. I agree, the only "deal" China will accept is a total capitulation of the United States, so there will be no deal.
- vkou 7y ago
  I like how you manage to assign blame for the actions of a few drug dealers to an entire country.
  - Consultant32452 7y ago
    There's basically one company making all this fentanyl. We know where it is, we know where the CEO lives. He's walking around free and in the open in China.
    - vkou 7y ago
      You are wrong to blame an entire country for our addiction to fentanyl. The facts are: 1. Fentanyl has legitimate pharmaceutical uses. 2. There are many, many, many legal manufacturers of Fentanyl, across the world, including Bayer, Johnson&Johnson, Meiji Seika Pharma (Japan), and yes, Chinese manufacturers. Some legal fentanyl ends up getting diverted into illegal channels. 3. There are also many, many, many illegal manufacturers of Fentanyl, again, across the world. 4. The reason for why China has had an outsized share of illegal fentanyl production is that for many years, it (and its derivatives and precursors) has not been a controlled substance. 5. Fentanyl is now a controlled substance in China, and it, its precursors, and its derivatives have been controlled substances since May 2019.
      - Consultant32452 7y ago
        And yet in August we seized a Chinese shipment of fentanyl large enough to kill an entire state's worth of people. When China actually does something beyond lip service, then I'll believe you. Let's not forget, every major industry in China is controlled by the party. Whether it was a controlled substance in China is irrelevant to whether or not they're literally killing us by the tens of thousands a year. https://www.foxnews.com/media/opioid-crisis-fentanyl-china-mexico-florida https://www.foxnews.com/media/opioid-crisis-fentanyl-china-m...
        logicchains 7y ago
        Maybe what's killing America is that its sense of personal responsibility has degraded so much that it's now acceptable to blame its drug problems on the Chinese government. Not the individual's fault, not the parents' fault, not the American government's fault, not the society's fault, but the Chinese government's fault.
        majia 7y ago
        What seized were not fentanyl, but some chemicals could be used in the fentanyl manufacturing process, as well as many other legitimate use. If you want to stop fentanyl, the best thing to do is to figure out what chemicals are used exclusively in fentayl production and build an international coalition to ban those. Unfortunately many people just don't appreciate this kind of sophistication and prefer an easier blame game.
        Consultant32452 7y ago
        I have to admit, I wasn't expecting the Chinese people are stupid defense. I guess they have no idea who their customers are or what their products are being used for.
        majia 7y ago
        In low end manufacturing sector it's really hard to know your end customers. The products are highly standardized and can go though multiple middlemen. Also the sheer volume, most of which are legitimate, makes it very difficult for governments to track.
    - voldacar 7y ago
      It seems hard to believe that the rise of fentanyl could be traced to only one company/individual - could you be more specific about the person/people you're referring to?
      - Consultant32452 7y ago
        https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-05-22/deadly-chinese-fentanyl-is-creating-a-new-era-of-drug-kingpins https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-05-22/deadly-ch...
DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
"Exploit the US" by providing cheap labor to US firms? It's scary to see jingoistic rhetoric spreading on HN. China is the new enemy du jour, and lots of people here seem to be itching for a conflict.
- ep103 7y ago
  The tables are fundamentally imbalanced now, I see nothing wrong with the US attempting to finally start addressing the issue. The fact that US companies have been exploiting that imbalance to pursue cheap labor is irrelevant to the conversation.

China doesn't want a deal. They only want to continue to exploit the US. So the US is gradually decoupling from them.

by 99_00 7y ago

China doesn't want a deal. They only want to continue to exploit the US. So the US is gradually decoupling from them.

They're literally killing us by the tens of thousands every year. It seems like every week there's some story about a Chinese product with Mercury or other poisons. Recently we caught them smuggling enough fentanyl through our southern border to kill a billion people. I agree, the only "deal" China will accept is a total capitulation of the United States, so there will be no deal.

vkou 7y ago
I like how you manage to assign blame for the actions of a few drug dealers to an entire country.
- Consultant32452 7y ago
  There's basically one company making all this fentanyl. We know where it is, we know where the CEO lives. He's walking around free and in the open in China.
  - vkou 7y ago
    You are wrong to blame an entire country for our addiction to fentanyl. The facts are: 1. Fentanyl has legitimate pharmaceutical uses. 2. There are many, many, many legal manufacturers of Fentanyl, across the world, including Bayer, Johnson&Johnson, Meiji Seika Pharma (Japan), and yes, Chinese manufacturers. Some legal fentanyl ends up getting diverted into illegal channels. 3. There are also many, many, many illegal manufacturers of Fentanyl, again, across the world. 4. The reason for why China has had an outsized share of illegal fentanyl production is that for many years, it (and its derivatives and precursors) has not been a controlled substance. 5. Fentanyl is now a controlled substance in China, and it, its precursors, and its derivatives have been controlled substances since May 2019.
    - Consultant32452 7y ago
      And yet in August we seized a Chinese shipment of fentanyl large enough to kill an entire state's worth of people. When China actually does something beyond lip service, then I'll believe you. Let's not forget, every major industry in China is controlled by the party. Whether it was a controlled substance in China is irrelevant to whether or not they're literally killing us by the tens of thousands a year. https://www.foxnews.com/media/opioid-crisis-fentanyl-china-mexico-florida https://www.foxnews.com/media/opioid-crisis-fentanyl-china-m...
      - logicchains 7y ago
        Maybe what's killing America is that its sense of personal responsibility has degraded so much that it's now acceptable to blame its drug problems on the Chinese government. Not the individual's fault, not the parents' fault, not the American government's fault, not the society's fault, but the Chinese government's fault.
      - majia 7y ago
        What seized were not fentanyl, but some chemicals could be used in the fentanyl manufacturing process, as well as many other legitimate use. If you want to stop fentanyl, the best thing to do is to figure out what chemicals are used exclusively in fentayl production and build an international coalition to ban those. Unfortunately many people just don't appreciate this kind of sophistication and prefer an easier blame game.
        Consultant32452 7y ago
        I have to admit, I wasn't expecting the Chinese people are stupid defense. I guess they have no idea who their customers are or what their products are being used for.
        majia 7y ago
        In low end manufacturing sector it's really hard to know your end customers. The products are highly standardized and can go though multiple middlemen. Also the sheer volume, most of which are legitimate, makes it very difficult for governments to track.
  - voldacar 7y ago
    It seems hard to believe that the rise of fentanyl could be traced to only one company/individual - could you be more specific about the person/people you're referring to?
    - Consultant32452 7y ago
      https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-05-22/deadly-chinese-fentanyl-is-creating-a-new-era-of-drug-kingpins https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-05-22/deadly-ch...

DiogenesKynikos 7y ago

"Exploit the US" by providing cheap labor to US firms? It's scary to see jingoistic rhetoric spreading on HN. China is the new enemy du jour, and lots of people here seem to be itching for a conflict.

ep103 7y ago
The tables are fundamentally imbalanced now, I see nothing wrong with the US attempting to finally start addressing the issue. The fact that US companies have been exploiting that imbalance to pursue cheap labor is irrelevant to the conversation.