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You can prove fraud if you show up to a polling place and the poll worker says they already have a record of you voting. It’s not actually the honor system eit

You can prove fraud if you show up to a polling place and the poll worker says they already have a record of you voting. It’s not actually the honor system either they ask for your address.

pdonis 7y ago
> It’s not actually the honor system either they ask for your address. I wasn't talking about eligibility based on address (though of course that should be checked too), but based on citizenship.
- akhilcacharya 7y ago
  The only way to prove citizenship on the spot would be with a passport. The government knows your citizenship status when you register to vote. Honestly I wouldn’t mind if the only requirement to vote was a passport to prove citizenship. It would probably disenfranchise lots of folks though, given only a fraction of the country has one.
  - pdonis 7y ago
    > The government knows your citizenship status when you register to vote. Yes, but if you register at a time other than the time you vote, how do you prove at the time you vote that you're the same person who registered and had all that information checked when they registered? That's what the ID is for. A passport would also work, but I don't think that should be the only possible way to do it. Now that most states are supporting RealID, your state will most likely be able to issue you an ID that you have to prove citizenship to get.
    - akhilcacharya 7y ago
      You’re aware non citizens can get RealID drivers licenses too right? The only way you can prove citizenship is with a passport. Of course if you were going to the effort of attempting to impersonate someone you’d probably forge documents too which aren’t deeply checked in my experience of living in a state that had an ID requirement designed to disenfranchise black voters [0]. Ultimately it’s not a problem worth the energy of being solved. [0] https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/north-carolina-voter-id/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/north-carolina-voter-id/
      - pandaman 7y ago
        As it is now, you don't need to forge anything. All you need to register for vote in California is to fill and mail a form. You can put last 4 digits of your SSN if you don't provide your state ID#. You don't need to have an address, you can just draw a map where you live. Supposedly, if you register like that (by mail) you have to show a photo ID first time you vote, however, in practice, nobody wanted to see my photo ID despite my attempts to show it. What stops someone from filing a bunch of those with random names and random 4 digit SSNs with maps to the Skid Row or SOMA or any homeless encampment? You think they might be checking name match with the SSN? Could be, but then you can also apply for ITIN with the same random names and see if they can distinguish one from another. If ID were to be required then you'd have to make multiple fake ids - inherently more complex and dangerous task than filling out a bunch of voter registration forms. And it could be very dangerous to show with these fake IDs at the polls where they could have government-issue scanners checking them out.
        masonic 7y ago
        Supposedly, if you register like that (by mail) you have to show a photo ID first time you vote In fact, it's illegal for a poll worker to demand photo ID in CA.
        akhilcacharya 7y ago
        If you have any proof that someone would go to that massive effort of harvesting homeless people’s votes then I’m sure people would love to hear about it. Given the fact that CA is also moving heavily towards vote by mail the ID issue is again entirely superfluous. Reminds me of when my senator forgot his ID when he went to vote - so he submitted an absentee ballot the same day. Without an ID. Hysterical.
        pandaman 7y ago
        Not that I've ever mentioned that there is a homeless vote harvesting going on but since you asked: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=homeless+voter+fraud&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=homeless+voter+fraud&ia=web . ID, obviously, won't prevent vote by mail fraud but that one is harder to do since it requires a valid mailing address to receive a ballot, supposedly.
taborj 7y ago
But without requiring an ID, how do they validate the name? How do they validate the address? How do they stop someone from giving a completely made up name and a somewhat plausible sounding address? Serious questions, because I'm in a vote-by-mail state, so I don't actually have to go anywhere to vote. I don't know how that all works. I had assumed they required ID and checked it, but now I'm realizing I've given too much credit to the voting system.
- akhilcacharya 7y ago
  They have voter registration information for everyone registered in the precinct.
  - pdonis 7y ago
    But how do they know the person showing up to vote is the person they have registration information for?
    - akhilcacharya 7y ago
      Because you’d have to have the right name and address while also knowing the person you’ve impersonated hasn’t voted yet. Then you’d have to wonder why you’re going to the effort for one extra vote because this is a made up problem.
      - masonic 7y ago
        They only ask the name. The prospective voter can read the address from the log before ever being asked it as long as they can read it upside down. Even reciting "your own" address incorrectly isn't cause to deny you a ballot.

You can prove fraud if you show up to a polling place and the poll worker says they already have a record of you voting. It’s not actually the honor system either they ask for your address.

pdonis 7y ago

> It’s not actually the honor system either they ask for your address. I wasn't talking about eligibility based on address (though of course that should be checked too), but based on citizenship.

akhilcacharya 7y ago
The only way to prove citizenship on the spot would be with a passport. The government knows your citizenship status when you register to vote. Honestly I wouldn’t mind if the only requirement to vote was a passport to prove citizenship. It would probably disenfranchise lots of folks though, given only a fraction of the country has one.
- pdonis 7y ago
  > The government knows your citizenship status when you register to vote. Yes, but if you register at a time other than the time you vote, how do you prove at the time you vote that you're the same person who registered and had all that information checked when they registered? That's what the ID is for. A passport would also work, but I don't think that should be the only possible way to do it. Now that most states are supporting RealID, your state will most likely be able to issue you an ID that you have to prove citizenship to get.
  - akhilcacharya 7y ago
    You’re aware non citizens can get RealID drivers licenses too right? The only way you can prove citizenship is with a passport. Of course if you were going to the effort of attempting to impersonate someone you’d probably forge documents too which aren’t deeply checked in my experience of living in a state that had an ID requirement designed to disenfranchise black voters [0]. Ultimately it’s not a problem worth the energy of being solved. [0] https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/north-carolina-voter-id/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/north-carolina-voter-id/
    - pandaman 7y ago
      As it is now, you don't need to forge anything. All you need to register for vote in California is to fill and mail a form. You can put last 4 digits of your SSN if you don't provide your state ID#. You don't need to have an address, you can just draw a map where you live. Supposedly, if you register like that (by mail) you have to show a photo ID first time you vote, however, in practice, nobody wanted to see my photo ID despite my attempts to show it. What stops someone from filing a bunch of those with random names and random 4 digit SSNs with maps to the Skid Row or SOMA or any homeless encampment? You think they might be checking name match with the SSN? Could be, but then you can also apply for ITIN with the same random names and see if they can distinguish one from another. If ID were to be required then you'd have to make multiple fake ids - inherently more complex and dangerous task than filling out a bunch of voter registration forms. And it could be very dangerous to show with these fake IDs at the polls where they could have government-issue scanners checking them out.
      - masonic 7y ago
        Supposedly, if you register like that (by mail) you have to show a photo ID first time you vote In fact, it's illegal for a poll worker to demand photo ID in CA.
      - akhilcacharya 7y ago
        If you have any proof that someone would go to that massive effort of harvesting homeless people’s votes then I’m sure people would love to hear about it. Given the fact that CA is also moving heavily towards vote by mail the ID issue is again entirely superfluous. Reminds me of when my senator forgot his ID when he went to vote - so he submitted an absentee ballot the same day. Without an ID. Hysterical.
        pandaman 7y ago
        Not that I've ever mentioned that there is a homeless vote harvesting going on but since you asked: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=homeless+voter+fraud&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=homeless+voter+fraud&ia=web . ID, obviously, won't prevent vote by mail fraud but that one is harder to do since it requires a valid mailing address to receive a ballot, supposedly.

taborj 7y ago

But without requiring an ID, how do they validate the name? How do they validate the address? How do they stop someone from giving a completely made up name and a somewhat plausible sounding address? Serious questions, because I'm in a vote-by-mail state, so I don't actually have to go anywhere to vote. I don't know how that all works. I had assumed they required ID and checked it, but now I'm realizing I've given too much credit to the voting system.

akhilcacharya 7y ago
They have voter registration information for everyone registered in the precinct.
- pdonis 7y ago
  But how do they know the person showing up to vote is the person they have registration information for?
  - akhilcacharya 7y ago
    Because you’d have to have the right name and address while also knowing the person you’ve impersonated hasn’t voted yet. Then you’d have to wonder why you’re going to the effort for one extra vote because this is a made up problem.
    - masonic 7y ago
      They only ask the name. The prospective voter can read the address from the log before ever being asked it as long as they can read it upside down. Even reciting "your own" address incorrectly isn't cause to deny you a ballot.