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This is the hardest thing for me to convey to my liberal friends. This _is_ the system working as it was designed. They can't wrap their heads around the idea

This is the hardest thing for me to convey to my liberal friends. This _is_ the system working as it was designed. They can't wrap their heads around the idea that some people aren't interested in advancing democracy, and that they must just be behaving illogically.

eadmund 7y ago
> They can't wrap their heads around the idea that some people aren't interested in advancing democracy, and that they must just be behaving illogically. I would think anyone who has ever seen 50%+1 of the electorate support an unjust law would be less than interested in advancing democracy. Democracy is a means: good government and liberty are the ends. That's a good part of the reason why the United States are not a democracy but rather a republic: we don't normally put laws up to the people directly for a vote, but in fact put many things beyond the reach of democracy. Freedom of and from religion, for example. I don't really see how permitting felons to vote is likely to lead to either good government or increased liberty, although certainly the citizens of Florida had every right to amend their constitution to extend the franchise to felons, and the politicians of the state have a duty to obey their constitution.
- anoncake 7y ago
  > Democracy is a means: good government and liberty are the ends. WTF. > That's a good part of the reason why the United States are not a democracy but rather a republic: I guess it makes more sense if you think that rule of the people is somehow the opposite of not having a monarch.
  - no_one_special 7y ago
    > WTF. Democracy is a decision-forcing mechanism that allows for a some amount of public participation in the mechanisms of governance. it is not a terminal value, it is an instrumental value. good government and liberty are the terminal values. democracy is a means to achieve good government.
    - anoncake 7y ago
      Democracy is freedom, excercised collectively. If the people does not rule itself – which in terms of individuals means that everyone has about equal influence – it gets ruled by someone. That entity probably doesn't have the people's best interests in mind, if it even knows them. We need freedom for the same reason: Because when you let a person make decisions for themselves, you have generally picked the best person for the job. Ultimately neither are terminal conditions though, happiness is.

eadmund 7y ago

> They can't wrap their heads around the idea that some people aren't interested in advancing democracy, and that they must just be behaving illogically. I would think anyone who has ever seen 50%+1 of the electorate support an unjust law would be less than interested in advancing democracy. Democracy is a means: good government and liberty are the ends. That's a good part of the reason why the United States are not a democracy but rather a republic: we don't normally put laws up to the people directly for a vote, but in fact put many things beyond the reach of democracy. Freedom of and from religion, for example. I don't really see how permitting felons to vote is likely to lead to either good government or increased liberty, although certainly the citizens of Florida had every right to amend their constitution to extend the franchise to felons, and the politicians of the state have a duty to obey their constitution.

anoncake 7y ago
> Democracy is a means: good government and liberty are the ends. WTF. > That's a good part of the reason why the United States are not a democracy but rather a republic: I guess it makes more sense if you think that rule of the people is somehow the opposite of not having a monarch.
- no_one_special 7y ago
  > WTF. Democracy is a decision-forcing mechanism that allows for a some amount of public participation in the mechanisms of governance. it is not a terminal value, it is an instrumental value. good government and liberty are the terminal values. democracy is a means to achieve good government.
  - anoncake 7y ago
    Democracy is freedom, excercised collectively. If the people does not rule itself – which in terms of individuals means that everyone has about equal influence – it gets ruled by someone. That entity probably doesn't have the people's best interests in mind, if it even knows them. We need freedom for the same reason: Because when you let a person make decisions for themselves, you have generally picked the best person for the job. Ultimately neither are terminal conditions though, happiness is.