5 ms·

He's talking about China, don't be obtuse, America, while being horrendous abroad, is no where near as bad as China would be in Americas position if the treatme

He's talking about China, don't be obtuse, America, while being horrendous abroad, is no where near as bad as China would be in Americas position if the treatment of their own subjects is any indication.

madiathomas 7y ago
In what world is US better than China? China doesn't travel to other countries and directly kill millions of civilians like the United States. This website is so shitty when coming to defending the United States. I don't know why I continue to waste my time reading shitty pro-US propaganda on this website.
- 5trokerac3 7y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward#Consequences https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward#Consequence... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System#Implications_for_citizens https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System#Implicati... https://www.businessinsider.com/china-xinjiang-prisoners-blindfolded-tied-up-leaked-drone-footage-2019-10?r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/china-xinjiang-prisoners-bli... https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/02/chinas-re-education-through-labor-system-the-view-from-within/272913/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/02/ch...
  - justaduderr 7y ago
    OK, are you going to post about the many US atrocities as well? Slavery, extermination of the indigenous population, redlining, Jim Crow, exploitation of illegal immigrant labor, etc. Keep in mind this isn't even counting what the USA does abroad. China is bad, but USA is bad too. Make no mistake.
    - 5trokerac3 7y ago
      Everything from that list is from within the last 60 years. While China was murdering between 60 to 100 million of its citizens, America passed the Civil Rights Act.
      - justaduderr 7y ago
        I don't have too much time to educate you on these things but just to note: Re: "60 to 100 million of its citizens" is just straight up wrong. There was a Great Famine in China* - Mao did not murder up to 100 million citizens. Are you serious? Your own source says as much. Re: Social Credit System (SCS) - By pretty much every metric the SCS has not resulted in massive discrimination on the scale of racism and sexism in the United States. However this may change. But for now this is not really relevant in terms of making a comparison. Funny enough I don't really like China that much (or any large country) for a variety of reasons, but your reasoning is both absurd and factually incorrect. It's literally propaganda. Please educate yourself before making outlandish claims. China murdered 60 to 100 million of its citizens? Jeez - the American education system is an embarrassment. * Though the famine should not and cannot be compared to murder, anyone who has read the literature probably knows that Mao's overzealous policies during the period probably increased the death toll, but even so that cannot be said to be "murder". Saying such is propaganda and more importantly, wrong. --- Also, to say American passed the Civil Rights Act without mentioning the Civil War is silly. The Civil War killed about 2% of the USA population. So if America was the size of China (which it wasn't), that would be like 12 million people dying, approximately half of the population generally accepted to have died during the 1960 in China (during the Great Famine). I won't bother comparing Xinjiang to Guantanamo Bay...
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
        MikeHolman 7y ago
        Mentioning the Civil War is ridiculous. It was a war that happened 150 years ago, and it resulted in the end of slavery in America. It's not like it was an act of oppression. And by all accounts the situation in Xinjiang is much worse than Guantanamo Bay. To start, Guantanamo Bay at its peak had under 800 people imprisoned. Xinjiang re-education camps are estimated to hold 1-3 million people. So the scale is massively different. It's hard to know exactly what happens in the camps, but the reports of torture and organ harvesting don't paint a rosy picture.
    - NotSammyHagar 7y ago
      What about it-ism doesn't get us anywhere. The US is bad but has aspirations, historical, theoretical and actual of recognizing mistakes and doing better. Among many things we recognize today in the us is that it was wrong to imprison Japanese people in the US in ww2, Jim Crow laws were wrong, slavery was wrong and we changed the constitution to deal with it (and fought a war), changed laws against Jim Crow type things. The us has owned up to a lot of historical mistakes. China? Not so much. I don't see China saying they can let Tibet go back to the way it was before they invaded. I don't see them agreeing to disagree with Taiwan. I don't see them letting HK go away and be free, when it's clear a significant number of people there want there. And then they have re-education/concentration camps for their Muslim minority. That's a clear attempt a genocide and destruction of their culture. The us did this against native americans to our everlasting shame. At least we have made some attempts to deal with that mistake.
      - justaduderr 7y ago
        > What about it-ism doesn't get us anywhere. This is false. Energy, money, time and resources are better used focusing on domestic concerns that can easily be resolved, not foreign matters. The USA has never owned up to anything without violent protests, and as you say yourself, a war. China will have the same growing pains I'm sure. I won't bother list what USA has done in foreign nations, but suffice it to say it's pretty bad. The point is that people don't actually care about the bad things, it's just typical anti-China sentiment being fed by major publications.
        mruts 7y ago
        Are you serious? Liberals and Conservatives talk about how shitty America is constantly. Either you’re not American or being deliberately obtuse.
      - behringer 7y ago
        What aboutism is wrong, so it's fine we're losing 4bn because of this issue, not fixing our society, and pretending it's ok just because china's not fixing theirs either.
  - madiathomas 7y ago
    Show me evidence of China travelling to other countries and kill millions of people like the United States. As a non-citizen of China, I am not worried about social credit system and any monitoring that happens in China. Every country does have some human rights violations. I am worried about a country that thinks they can travel to any country and bomb civilians when they want to loot their resources.
    - 5trokerac3 7y ago
      I have a feeling you're not going to want to admit this, but the current administration is actively reversing that policy. Also look into what China is doing economically in Africa and you might be reminded of pre-Gulf War America in the Middle East.
      - madiathomas 7y ago
        I live in an African country. I know what China is doing in my country. This is what they are doing -> Investing billions of rands and they never supported an unjust government like US which was sponsoring apartheid government in my country and listed Nelson Mandela as a terrorist for fighting against their favourite government which was oppressing black people in their own country.
        5trokerac3 7y ago
        Yeah, the Han Chinese have zero history of considering other peoples inferior. Give me a fucking break. You sound like someone who was on the Shah's payroll in the 70s.
        dang 7y ago
        Flamewar comments and personal attacks like this will get you banned here. Please review the site guidelines and either make kind, thoughtful posts to HN, or no posts to HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        7y ago
Scramblejams 7y ago
Any sense of proportion is often the first thing thrown out the window in nationalist debates, unfortunately.

madiathomas 7y ago

In what world is US better than China? China doesn't travel to other countries and directly kill millions of civilians like the United States. This website is so shitty when coming to defending the United States. I don't know why I continue to waste my time reading shitty pro-US propaganda on this website.

5trokerac3 7y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward#Consequences https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward#Consequence... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System#Implications_for_citizens https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System#Implicati... https://www.businessinsider.com/china-xinjiang-prisoners-blindfolded-tied-up-leaked-drone-footage-2019-10?r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/china-xinjiang-prisoners-bli... https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/02/chinas-re-education-through-labor-system-the-view-from-within/272913/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/02/ch...
- justaduderr 7y ago
  OK, are you going to post about the many US atrocities as well? Slavery, extermination of the indigenous population, redlining, Jim Crow, exploitation of illegal immigrant labor, etc. Keep in mind this isn't even counting what the USA does abroad. China is bad, but USA is bad too. Make no mistake.
  - 5trokerac3 7y ago
    Everything from that list is from within the last 60 years. While China was murdering between 60 to 100 million of its citizens, America passed the Civil Rights Act.
    - justaduderr 7y ago
      I don't have too much time to educate you on these things but just to note: Re: "60 to 100 million of its citizens" is just straight up wrong. There was a Great Famine in China* - Mao did not murder up to 100 million citizens. Are you serious? Your own source says as much. Re: Social Credit System (SCS) - By pretty much every metric the SCS has not resulted in massive discrimination on the scale of racism and sexism in the United States. However this may change. But for now this is not really relevant in terms of making a comparison. Funny enough I don't really like China that much (or any large country) for a variety of reasons, but your reasoning is both absurd and factually incorrect. It's literally propaganda. Please educate yourself before making outlandish claims. China murdered 60 to 100 million of its citizens? Jeez - the American education system is an embarrassment. * Though the famine should not and cannot be compared to murder, anyone who has read the literature probably knows that Mao's overzealous policies during the period probably increased the death toll, but even so that cannot be said to be "murder". Saying such is propaganda and more importantly, wrong. --- Also, to say American passed the Civil Rights Act without mentioning the Civil War is silly. The Civil War killed about 2% of the USA population. So if America was the size of China (which it wasn't), that would be like 12 million people dying, approximately half of the population generally accepted to have died during the 1960 in China (during the Great Famine). I won't bother comparing Xinjiang to Guantanamo Bay...
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - MikeHolman 7y ago
        Mentioning the Civil War is ridiculous. It was a war that happened 150 years ago, and it resulted in the end of slavery in America. It's not like it was an act of oppression. And by all accounts the situation in Xinjiang is much worse than Guantanamo Bay. To start, Guantanamo Bay at its peak had under 800 people imprisoned. Xinjiang re-education camps are estimated to hold 1-3 million people. So the scale is massively different. It's hard to know exactly what happens in the camps, but the reports of torture and organ harvesting don't paint a rosy picture.
  - NotSammyHagar 7y ago
    What about it-ism doesn't get us anywhere. The US is bad but has aspirations, historical, theoretical and actual of recognizing mistakes and doing better. Among many things we recognize today in the us is that it was wrong to imprison Japanese people in the US in ww2, Jim Crow laws were wrong, slavery was wrong and we changed the constitution to deal with it (and fought a war), changed laws against Jim Crow type things. The us has owned up to a lot of historical mistakes. China? Not so much. I don't see China saying they can let Tibet go back to the way it was before they invaded. I don't see them agreeing to disagree with Taiwan. I don't see them letting HK go away and be free, when it's clear a significant number of people there want there. And then they have re-education/concentration camps for their Muslim minority. That's a clear attempt a genocide and destruction of their culture. The us did this against native americans to our everlasting shame. At least we have made some attempts to deal with that mistake.
    - justaduderr 7y ago
      > What about it-ism doesn't get us anywhere. This is false. Energy, money, time and resources are better used focusing on domestic concerns that can easily be resolved, not foreign matters. The USA has never owned up to anything without violent protests, and as you say yourself, a war. China will have the same growing pains I'm sure. I won't bother list what USA has done in foreign nations, but suffice it to say it's pretty bad. The point is that people don't actually care about the bad things, it's just typical anti-China sentiment being fed by major publications.
      - mruts 7y ago
        Are you serious? Liberals and Conservatives talk about how shitty America is constantly. Either you’re not American or being deliberately obtuse.
    - behringer 7y ago
      What aboutism is wrong, so it's fine we're losing 4bn because of this issue, not fixing our society, and pretending it's ok just because china's not fixing theirs either.
- madiathomas 7y ago
  Show me evidence of China travelling to other countries and kill millions of people like the United States. As a non-citizen of China, I am not worried about social credit system and any monitoring that happens in China. Every country does have some human rights violations. I am worried about a country that thinks they can travel to any country and bomb civilians when they want to loot their resources.
  - 5trokerac3 7y ago
    I have a feeling you're not going to want to admit this, but the current administration is actively reversing that policy. Also look into what China is doing economically in Africa and you might be reminded of pre-Gulf War America in the Middle East.
    - madiathomas 7y ago
      I live in an African country. I know what China is doing in my country. This is what they are doing -> Investing billions of rands and they never supported an unjust government like US which was sponsoring apartheid government in my country and listed Nelson Mandela as a terrorist for fighting against their favourite government which was oppressing black people in their own country.
      - 5trokerac3 7y ago
        Yeah, the Han Chinese have zero history of considering other peoples inferior. Give me a fucking break. You sound like someone who was on the Shah's payroll in the 70s.
        dang 7y ago
        Flamewar comments and personal attacks like this will get you banned here. Please review the site guidelines and either make kind, thoughtful posts to HN, or no posts to HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      - 7y ago

Scramblejams 7y ago

Any sense of proportion is often the first thing thrown out the window in nationalist debates, unfortunately.