4 ms·

It helps to know a little bit about what's been going on in Hong Kong, before you all line up and take your daily dump on China. It all started a few months ag

It helps to know a little bit about what's been going on in Hong Kong, before you all line up and take your daily dump on China. It all started a few months ago when someone committed a crime in Taiwan and fled to Hong Kong. To prevent HK from becoming a safe haven for criminals, the Chief Executive of HK proposed a new law to facilitate extradition of these crime suspects from HK to various jurisdictions in the region, including Taiwan and mainland China. The proposed law even explicitly stated that it's not applicably to crimes political in nature. But some HK people were nevertheless concerned that it might be abused by China to target political dissidents in HK. So they have taken to the streets to protest that law. As a result, the law was quickly suspended before it had a chance to pass, and a few weeks ago the HK Chief Executive officially announced the withdrawal of the law. However, despite the concession from the HK government, the protesters pressed on, demanding four more concessions from the government, chief among them universal suffrage, or the direct election of the HK Chief Executive, who up to this point have been nominated from a narrow pool of Beijing-approved candidates, then voted on by a committee. It's not entirely clear that China even had anything to do with the proposal of the law which started this ordeal. But the protesters have been shrewd to paint a picture, to great effect, of big bad China stomping on the poor helpless people of HK. What I cannot stress enough, is the rampant violence and destruction from these protesters, which has done this great city, and many innocent citizens, unimaginable harm. Feel free to support their peaceful protests, but please don't simply pile on and encourage these violence and destruction. (EDIT: If anything I said is untrue, please correct me. Use the truth to argue your side, don't be a coward and hide behind your downvote.)

throwaway1997 7y ago
Yes, if you deliberately ignore any of the bad things the government did, and focus on the bad things the protestors did, that story is roughly accurate.
- UIZealot 7y ago
  Please tell us all the bad things the government has done since the proposal of the extradition bill.
  - barkxyz 7y ago
    I can't tell you all but among them: - Using the murder in Taiwan as a pretext to introduce the bill when it could easily have been handled ad hoc with Taiwan. - Claiming it was a loophole left over by the British when it was very clearly by design. - Initially refusing to suspend the bill in the face of huge opposition. - Taking months to fully withdraw the bill and proudly ignoring the protestors. - Blanket refusing an independent enquiry and unwaveringly supporting police no matter how brutal and unprofessional they've become. - Seeking permission from Xi to withdraw the bill. - Introducing an anti-mask law instead of attempting serious reform. - Threatening internet lock downs instead of attempting serious reform. - Not criticising the central government for threatening military violence and flagrantly manipulating coverage of HK on the mainland. Those are just a few that stand out to me though I'm sure there are more I've missed.
chillacy 7y ago
This picture you're painting makes it sound like the protests are an overblown response to a minor grievance, like WW1 was an overblown response to the assassination of a minor archduke, without taking into account decades of cultural clashes and building tensions.
- Sag0Sag0 7y ago
  I think it's fair to say that WW1 was an overblown response. All the background tension doesn't in any way make WW1 justified. I imagine the poster you are responding to thinks the same thing.
throwaway_bad 7y ago
This is unintentionally the clearest demonstration of the clash of cultural values in the whole thread. Between harmony and human rights, it's absolutely clear to a westerner which one is more important. From your tone, it is also absolutely clear which one you would choose. > If anything I said is untrue, please correct me It's possible to only say true things and still be biased. This is probably the most common way of spinning a story for "fake news". Some major events I would definitely include are: - The 2015 Causeway bay disappearances which justified the fear of extradition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearan... - Carrie Lam doesn't actually have autonomy and needs confirmation from beijing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOft2Y6mH_g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOft2Y6mH_g - Escalation of force, hiring triads to attack citizens, blinding journalist with rubber bullets, shooting live ammo at students in the chest, etc etc. There are a lot more I can add but halfway through I realize the details don't really matter. The difference in cultural values will make the interpretation of these events irreconcilable anyway. To an individualist, the only fact that matters is that at least 2 million in a city of 8 million want the right to their own destiny. To a collectivist, the only fact that matters is that the government is building a more harmonious society so the ends justify any means.
- UIZealot 7y ago
  > Between harmony and human rights, it's absolutely clear to a westerner which one is more important. What have been the human rights violations from the government, aside from responses to protester violence? Labeling yourself "human rights" does not automatically make you right. > It's possible to only say true things and still be biased. This is probably the most common way of spinning a story for "fake news". Certainly. And you are immune to biases and spinning "fake news" ... how? > Escalation of force, hiring triads to attack citizens, blinding journalist with rubber bullets, shooting live ammo at students in the chest, "triads"? "fake news" much? What else from this list is anything but a response to protester violence? Or do you think the policy should just stand still and take the beating? > To an individualist, Keep throwing labels around all you want, it doesn't make you right. Your freedom to shine your laser light ends where another person's eyes begin.
usaar333 7y ago
This is a fair summary, but you can't divorce the protesters actions from the fact that there is no legitimate way for the protesters to alter the government. These protests were inevitable as the government basically lacks legitimacy in the eyes of the majority of the population. (Unlike the mainland government which is viewed as legitimate by and large by its citizens). It's only a matter of a trigger point. Plenty of people in the US hate the current government, but you don't get protests to this degree (i.e. widespread violence) in part because some degree of accountability exists.

throwaway1997 7y ago

Yes, if you deliberately ignore any of the bad things the government did, and focus on the bad things the protestors did, that story is roughly accurate.

UIZealot 7y ago
Please tell us all the bad things the government has done since the proposal of the extradition bill.
- barkxyz 7y ago
  I can't tell you all but among them: - Using the murder in Taiwan as a pretext to introduce the bill when it could easily have been handled ad hoc with Taiwan. - Claiming it was a loophole left over by the British when it was very clearly by design. - Initially refusing to suspend the bill in the face of huge opposition. - Taking months to fully withdraw the bill and proudly ignoring the protestors. - Blanket refusing an independent enquiry and unwaveringly supporting police no matter how brutal and unprofessional they've become. - Seeking permission from Xi to withdraw the bill. - Introducing an anti-mask law instead of attempting serious reform. - Threatening internet lock downs instead of attempting serious reform. - Not criticising the central government for threatening military violence and flagrantly manipulating coverage of HK on the mainland. Those are just a few that stand out to me though I'm sure there are more I've missed.

chillacy 7y ago

This picture you're painting makes it sound like the protests are an overblown response to a minor grievance, like WW1 was an overblown response to the assassination of a minor archduke, without taking into account decades of cultural clashes and building tensions.

Sag0Sag0 7y ago
I think it's fair to say that WW1 was an overblown response. All the background tension doesn't in any way make WW1 justified. I imagine the poster you are responding to thinks the same thing.

throwaway_bad 7y ago

This is unintentionally the clearest demonstration of the clash of cultural values in the whole thread. Between harmony and human rights, it's absolutely clear to a westerner which one is more important. From your tone, it is also absolutely clear which one you would choose. > If anything I said is untrue, please correct me It's possible to only say true things and still be biased. This is probably the most common way of spinning a story for "fake news". Some major events I would definitely include are: - The 2015 Causeway bay disappearances which justified the fear of extradition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearan... - Carrie Lam doesn't actually have autonomy and needs confirmation from beijing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOft2Y6mH_g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOft2Y6mH_g - Escalation of force, hiring triads to attack citizens, blinding journalist with rubber bullets, shooting live ammo at students in the chest, etc etc. There are a lot more I can add but halfway through I realize the details don't really matter. The difference in cultural values will make the interpretation of these events irreconcilable anyway. To an individualist, the only fact that matters is that at least 2 million in a city of 8 million want the right to their own destiny. To a collectivist, the only fact that matters is that the government is building a more harmonious society so the ends justify any means.

UIZealot 7y ago
> Between harmony and human rights, it's absolutely clear to a westerner which one is more important. What have been the human rights violations from the government, aside from responses to protester violence? Labeling yourself "human rights" does not automatically make you right. > It's possible to only say true things and still be biased. This is probably the most common way of spinning a story for "fake news". Certainly. And you are immune to biases and spinning "fake news" ... how? > Escalation of force, hiring triads to attack citizens, blinding journalist with rubber bullets, shooting live ammo at students in the chest, "triads"? "fake news" much? What else from this list is anything but a response to protester violence? Or do you think the policy should just stand still and take the beating? > To an individualist, Keep throwing labels around all you want, it doesn't make you right. Your freedom to shine your laser light ends where another person's eyes begin.

usaar333 7y ago

This is a fair summary, but you can't divorce the protesters actions from the fact that there is no legitimate way for the protesters to alter the government. These protests were inevitable as the government basically lacks legitimacy in the eyes of the majority of the population. (Unlike the mainland government which is viewed as legitimate by and large by its citizens). It's only a matter of a trigger point. Plenty of people in the US hate the current government, but you don't get protests to this degree (i.e. widespread violence) in part because some degree of accountability exists.