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U.S. widens trade blacklist to include some of China’s top AI startups
- baq 7y agoSouth Park episode and NBA fiasco made it possible for the public to be grateful for the move. Or maybe it was planned to happen before another round of negotiations and the timing is a... coincidence? Hard to believe in these anymore.
- throw_xyzyz 7y agoSo what? South park is part of the Trump state and was used to spread US soft power by being subversive to China?
- mijamo 7y agoI do not think this is a coincidence that tension between the US and China raises every time Trump has political issues, just like Russia suddenly finds ennemies when Putin faces discontent, or that Turkey fights kurds 10 times stronger when Erdogan feels threatened. Pointing an ennemy is a great way to get away with many things, and works very well with all kinds of publics.
- dmix 7y agoObviously he wants to finish a deal w/ China before the elections so he can use it as an example. Not everything is a conspiracy. Not to mention he seems to permanently be in a state of political crisis with his adversaries in the US. They've been rattling the impeachment sword since he got in power.
- onepointsixC 7y agoThere will be no trade deal and this is not merely a trade war. We are in a new cold war.
- ethbro 7y ago> Not everything is a conspiracy. But it's so much less fun to debate normalcy on HN.
- mc32 7y agoOh so that tweet and South Park, Hong Kong and political prisoners in China were orchestrated by the admin?!
- pravda 7y agoHey, it worked for Hitler! Creating an enemy is a classic technique for distracting the internal population.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- varjag 7y agoThe art of caption… > [..] some of China’s top artificial intelligence startups, punishing Beijing for its treatment of Muslim minorities [..] > The decision, which drew a sharp rebuke from Beijing, targets 20 Chinese public security bureaus and eight companies including video surveillance firm Hikvision, as well as leaders in facial recognition technology SenseTime Group Ltd and Megvii Technology Ltd. So Chinese palantirs get blacklisted, boo-f-hoo.
- toby- 7y agoI'm confused what point you're making, here? Not trying to be rude, I'm just unsure of your position. Are you implying this wasn't 'punishment' over China's treatment of Muslims? Or something else? Or am I misreading completely?
- rogu 7y agoThey likely mean since the list of blacklisted startups heavily (?) features surveillance companies, this whole situation is no big loss to anyone (presumbaly, the regular westerners as well as Chinese citizenry) as surveillance = absence of privacy = Orwellian = no bueno.
- toby- 7y agoAhh, now I understand. That's the more sensible interpretation. Thanks.
- varjag 7y agoIt's exactly as the sibling comment explains: no big loss to humanity.
- driverdan 7y agoHikvision is not remotely related to what Palantir does.
- saltking112 7y agoOne thing that I really like about the Trump administration is that finally the WH has decided to act against the systemic threat posed by China. Can someone who is well versed in politics shed some light on if this is a trump specific phenonemon or had there been a sea change and the dems are now on board too ?
- umvi 7y agoI agree. Obama was way too buddy-buddy with Xi. I hope the next president is even more hardline against China than Trump.
- ThinkBackTo 7y agoHardline sounds too mild. We must be open to considering extreme measures
- pesmhey 7y agoObama was manufacturing the pivot to Asia. The TTP would have given a lot of power to corporations to combat China. This presents its own set of problems though. Clinton was adamant that her grandchildren would not be speaking Chinese. China has been acknowledged as a threat since 2008 really, by everyone really, just, sometimes people need a very visual and visceral demonstration of action (no matter how less-optimal it actually is). Surely some business people in here can relate to that sentiment?
- dillondoyle 7y agoAlso in my opinion TPP critically united other Asian nations. I think Trump admins' abandoning of traditional allies/structures like TPP and ceding soft/hard power across the board for the sake of 'America First' is going to have lasting damage and is thus not putting America First in the long term...
- Mountain_Skies 7y agoPan-Asian relations is far more complex than just China and not-China. TPP wouldn't change that.
- derision 7y agoHave any other candidates expressed support for hardline Chinese policies? Trump easily has 4 more years, but I'm not sure who can successfully keep this going after that. I haven't paid much attention to the field, but I haven't seen any news on anyone else making statements on the topic.
- abootstrapper 7y ago> Easily 4 more years. What planet do you live on?
- mruts 7y agoI would personally (and have) put my monry on Trump winning against Warren or Sanders (Though he’s probably gonna drop out). Against Biden maybe 60/40 against Trump.
- rpmisms 7y agoThe same planet the people who thought he'd win in the first place were on.
- akhilcacharya 7y agoRead up on mean reversion and the fact that he won a 3 million fewer votes. If he even finishes* his term that is..
- rpmisms 7y agoYes, and he had a 2% chance of winning his first term. Are you going to trust the polls again? I'm not.
- akhilcacharya 7y agoThe polls got his popular vote margin correct. They also got the Democratic generic ballot correct in 2018.
- soheil 7y agoLegitimate question: at what point does censorship become something more benign such as blacklist or sanctions? If we do it?
- gpm 7y agoIn addition to what the other person said about broad vs specific, content neutrality. If you punch anyone who talks loudly, that's problematic for other reasons but not censorship per se. If you punch anyone who talks about Tienanmen square, you're censoring them. Pornography would be an example of something the US censors in certain contexts. We aren't banning your billboard because it's a billboard, we are banning it because the image on the billboard is people having sex.
- throw_xyzyz 7y agoBut if you only make sure anyone who talks about Tienanmen square from ever holding job again that is fine, according to the people who keep saying the freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences.
- h0p3 7y agoIf you ever want to openly speak with a mentally ill madman, hit me up. I am not bored by your history. =)
- root_axis 7y agoCensorship is not inherently wrong, it just depends on what is being censored.
- chronic71819 7y agoCensor: Highly targeted and specific, usually along the lines of communication. Like Xi and Winnie the Pooh. The US doesn't censor(?) Blacklist: Broader, usually applied to products and companies. China blacklisted Facebook. The US blacklisted Huawei.
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- abeppu 7y agoThe US claims that this blacklisting is unrelated to trade negotiations, but one has to wonder -- why did we wait until now? And if this is just a way to create leverage during trade negotiations, how would the administration gracefully reverse these blacklisting actions in exchange for something unrelated without it being patently clear that this was never about human rights?
- wnevets 7y ago>without it being patently clear that this was never about human rights? Have you been paying attention the last 3 or so years?
- abeppu 7y agoOr I guess, to phrase my confusion differently, if they're hoping to exchange this for a concession, and it will be clear to all that this was just a negotiating tactic when they roll it back ... why bother pretending at the outset that it's a principled stand over human rights? What's the point of the lip-service?
- jayrot 7y agoOne answer is: Because lip-service here and now is easy and has almost no consequences.
- panpanna 7y agoTrump himself confirmed this after he blacklisted ZTE right before the talks last year.
- avocado4 7y ago> how would the administration gracefully reverse these blacklisting actions Why should they reverse these?
- nwellnhof 7y agoIt's hard to imagine a trade deal where sanctions against Chinese companies are upheld.
- Merrill 7y agoI thought that "blacklist" was deprecated and that "denylist" or "blocklist" were appropriate usages? https://developers.google.com/style/word-list#letter-B https://developers.google.com/style/word-list#letter-B
- mruts 7y agoNo one cares. Just give it up.
- Judgmentality 7y agoI didn't know this was a thing. Is Google really that worried about being politically correct? Are there lots of people that care about this? My initial impression is that this is an incredibly forced alternative and it makes me cringe a bit.
- scohesc 7y agoWho cares? The words weren't even created with skin color in mind.
- gitgudnubs 7y agoYou're racist for thinking that the word "black" used to refer to something as bad is at all related to dark skinned people.
- lucasmullens 7y agoThat's a developer style guide, not a guide for all communication.
- yamato2022 7y agoHuman rights? How about the cruel family/child separation camps at our southern border?
- theferalrobot 7y agoPeople are fleeing their countries to the USA because of poor conditions. The USA lacks the facilities to properly handle all the people but does eventually work through the immigration processes. China is knowingly rounding up citizens based on belief or race and putting them in camps indefinitely... Pretty huge difference and your inability to comprehend that speaks to your intellectual dishonesty be it known to you or not.
- avocado4 7y ago> "our" Southern border Account registered 10 days ago posting in political threads.
- dmix 7y agoAccounts with a bunch of numbers at the end are always a good sign of one-off accounts.
- yellowapple 7y agoPosting in a political thread, AFAICT. Your implication here doesn't really fit given the available information.
- dang 7y agoHounding another user like this is a step into personal attack and breaks the site guidelines. The damage of bullying away a legit new user is much worse than the appearance of yet another political troll account, even if that's what this one was. It's obviously not, though, as you'd have seen for yourself if you'd read https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=yamato2022 https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=yamato2022 and, for example, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21133023 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21133023. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- 7y ago
- zelon88 7y ago"In other news, US IoT botnet activity down 75% after shipments of Hikvision cameras stopped by customs..."
- ETHisso2017 7y agohttps://s3.amazonaws.com/public-inspection.federalregister.gov/2019-22210.pdf https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-inspection.federalregister.g... Actual ban document.
- dade_ 7y ago"China said the United States should stop interfering in its affairs. It will continue to take firm and resolute measures to protect its sovereign security, foreign ministry spokesman Geng Shuang told a regular media briefing without elaborating." No government has the right to carry out a genocide.
- xhruso00 7y agoChina doesn’t kill people. They just send them to re-education camps. So term genocide is not correct
- onepointsixC 7y agoThey forcibly sterilize in said camps which is genocide according to the UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article II part d: "Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group"
- dade_ 7y agoThey do carry out the murder of muslims, other sects, and harvest their organs. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Gong_practitioners_in_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_...
- insulanus 7y ago> China doesn’t kill people. Hm. https://qz.com/683718/a-new-fathers-mysterious-death-in-police-custody-sparks-outrage-in-china/ https://qz.com/683718/a-new-fathers-mysterious-death-in-poli... https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/teenager-03142018154926.html https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/teenager-03142018154... https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/13/world/asia/china-lei-yang-police-death.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/13/world/asia/china-lei-yang... https://www.worldbulletin.net/caucasus/uyghur-woman-dies-in-chinese-custody-son-missing-h161440.html https://www.worldbulletin.net/caucasus/uyghur-woman-dies-in-... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Xiaobo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Xiaobo https://www.rfa.org/english/news/tibet/protester-02062014163940.html https://www.rfa.org/english/news/tibet/protester-02062014163... https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052970203518404577097532246936046 https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052970203518404577097... https://www.huffpost.com/entry/tenzin-delek-rinpoche-dead_n_7784828 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/tenzin-delek-rinpoche-dead_n_... https://nypost.com/2019/06/23/the-ugly-truth-about-chinas-organ-harvesting/ https://nypost.com/2019/06/23/the-ugly-truth-about-chinas-or... https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2019/06/18/china-killing-prisoners-to-harvest-organs-for-transplant-tribunal-finds/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2019/06/18/china-kil... Of course, anyone can change the past, so here is one that is not dead yet: https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2171746/chinese-activist-huang-qi-will-die-custody-if-denied-medical https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2171746/chin... We can wait for him together.
- AlexCoventry 7y agoHas this kind of strategy ever worked, in trade negotiations? It seems about as likely to be effective as a bombing campaign: It'll reduce the other side's effectiveness, but from a negotiation perspective it'll only cause them to dig in harder.
- TomMckenny 7y agoThere is actually a psychological difference. There maybe some digging in but generally nations can put a literal price on trade which they can not easily do with loss of life. Likewise national honor is less at stake. I suppose we're lucky that economic enticement/force usually gets better results than violence. Whether it works in this particular case, indeed whether the goal of tariffs/sanctions is even remotely what is announced are both unclear of course. If it were humanitarian, it would be nice to mention Hong Kong in the process.
- onepointsixC 7y agoWhy do you assume this is a negotiating tactic? There is broad bipartisan support for sanctions on companies which are involved in the on going oppression of Uighur's. Just as China uses it's economic might as leverage the US is more than capable of equal if not greater leverage of it's capital markets.
- AlexCoventry 7y agoJust taking Trump at his word. Wouldn't be the first time that turned out to be a mistake.
- 99_00 7y agoChina doesn't want a deal. They only want to continue to exploit the US. So the US is gradually decoupling from them.
- Consultant32452 7y agoThey're literally killing us by the tens of thousands every year. It seems like every week there's some story about a Chinese product with Mercury or other poisons. Recently we caught them smuggling enough fentanyl through our southern border to kill a billion people. I agree, the only "deal" China will accept is a total capitulation of the United States, so there will be no deal.
- trhway 7y agoif US wants to put pressure on and punish China, then instead of shooting itself in the foot and everywhere else with tariffs US could have just offered say 10K Green Cards (each coming with $1M resettlement bonus) to the top China researchers&engineers in any industry in China that US would want to cripple as a punishment. At $1M per such a top head it would be a steal for US, and for China it would be a very painful damage. Rinse and repeat ... (Such a solution comes to my mind as result of observing of pitiful state of Russia resulting from the brain-drain (immigration as well as just tech heads switching away into business/etc) it suffered especially during 199x)
- aianus 7y agoThe West should do this with Hong Kong. There must be many wealthy, educated HKers who are interested in leaving at this point and they would be a huge asset to whichever country accepts them.
- pinkfoot 7y agoIts called Vancouver.
- mattnewton 7y agoI love this idea; it plays strongly into American strengths. However, I don't know if China would be more successful in convincing it's top talent to stay with their families, and I have no idea how to sell this idea politically to American voters. The stereotype of Chinese culture is that they tend to be more collectivist, and the stereotype of the general population of American voters would most likely rather spend any money on Americans first. For the later problem, it is hard to articulate concisely the roundabout way this ends up causing brain drain, and the eventual benefits to the US citizenry. It is much easier to sell "China did something bad, we will punish them with tariffs" than "Chinese government bad, we will pay top Chinese citizens to defect."
- thereare5lights 7y agoWe were basically doing that via universities until the anti-Chinese sentiment shot up drastically in the past few years. You can't turn the clock back. The anti-Chinese sentiment is very high now in America.
- vunie 7y agoSo far, china has only retaliated defensively against the us. I wonder what will happen when china decides to go on the offensive the same way the us has and hit were it really hurts? What will happen if they cut off the us entirely and force asian countries to cease trading with it (i.e. using the same strategies used to isolate iran or turkey). Successful military intervention is unlikely since china is a nuclear superpower with a strong army and an even stronger industrial backbone. They're not some defenseless third-world shithole. I can't imagine it being long now, but china will eventually get to the tipping point were things start to go downhill for them. I bet china won't let it get to that point without retaliating for it's destroyed economy by thoroughly destroying the us economy while it still can. I think we'll soon be seeing humanity's first economical MAD event.
- bigpumpkin 7y agoThankfully I don't think the Chinese think they are able to institute broad sanctions on America. Classic tools that they may actually consider include: Dumping US treasuries. Making life for American companies difficult through regulations and inspections. Limiting rare earth exports. All of these have a cost on them as well (just like how most American tools on China have a cost on America), so they are careful to implement them.
- vunie 7y agoWhy not? If they reach a point where they'll have their economy destroyed, I'd bet on them responding in kind. Also, I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss their ability to suffocate the us if they no longer have an economy to lose. They're certainly in a military and geographic position to enforce a trade blockade, one way or another. If china really wanted it, I think they'd be more than able to severely limit trade between asia and the us to the point of destroying large parts of the us economy. Since China will likely not back down, I think an economic MAD will inevitably occur if the us insists on burning the only stick it can still use.
- stale2002 7y ago> What will happen if they cut off the us entirely and force asian countries to cease trading with it What happens when we do it to them? China is powerful, sure. But they aren't more powerful than the western world. We'll win that fight. (Well, by "win" I mean suffer less damages). Western companies are also already pretty cut off from the Chinese market. Cutting them off even more so is unlikely to have as huge if an impact as people are predicting.
- killjoywashere 7y agoIf you really want the Palantir of the Chinese, check out Novogene. Then ask yourself why they have a CLIA- and CAP-approved lab in Sacramento. Then ask yourself, what shameless, desperate, or just clueless physicians and researchers are allowing their patients' genomes to be sequenced by an asset of the Chinese Communist Party. https://en.novogene.com/technology/quality-control/lab-certifications/ https://en.novogene.com/technology/quality-control/lab-certi... https://www.linkedin.com/company/novogene-corporation https://www.linkedin.com/company/novogene-corporation https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Novogene-Reviews-E1790104.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Novogene-Reviews-E1790104....
- KaoruAoiShiho 7y agoAs far as I can see everyone of importance is Chinese, the locals are all sales and admin?
- buildzr 7y agoWow, interesting to see Hikvision on this list, I own several of their cameras (and keep them isolated on a separate VLAN), but once you know them, you see them everywhere, they have a huge hold in the video surveillance market. Wonder if their main Chinese competitor, Dahua will pick up their market share in the US or if there's a more local competitor. Huawei's HiSilicon fab makes purpose built ICs for these things, I've dumped the firmware for some whitebox ones done by a local tech retailer, but they were still heavily reliant on those ICs. Will be very interesting to see what happens in that market if this persists for long.
- bigpumpkin 7y agoDahua also on the list.
- AlexCoventry 7y agoIsn't dahua a homonym for bullshit in Mandarin? ("Big talk?") I'm surprised a company would choose that name.
- tintinlotus 7y agoIt' "Big China" in Chinese.
- AlexCoventry 7y agoYes, but a homonym is "大话", which I gather is a colloquial expression for "bullshit."
- cepp 7y agoA quick look [1] on 有道 reveals that this is not a homonym. [1]: https://www.youdao.com/w/eng/bullshit/#keyfrom=dict2.index https://www.youdao.com/w/eng/bullshit/#keyfrom=dict2.index
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- thesausageking 7y agoSenseTime was founded by an MIT grad and has joint AI research partnership with MIT[0]. It will be interesting what this blacklist means for these kinds of collaborations. [0] https://news.mit.edu/2018/mit-sensetime-announce-effort-advance-artificial-intelligence-research-0228 https://news.mit.edu/2018/mit-sensetime-announce-effort-adva...
- hkmaxpro 7y agoBut he’s also part of the controversial “Thousand Talents Program” [0] (link in Chinese) that is being closely watched by the US [1]. Not surprised at all about the blacklist. [0] https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E6%B1%A4%E6%99%93%E9%B8%A5 https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E6%B1%A4%E6%99%93%E9%B8%A5 [1] https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/07/24/business/fbi-1000-probes-ongoing-chinese-intellectual-property-theft/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/07/24/business/fbi-10...
- math_and_stuff 7y agoTurkey's drone program was also led by an MIT graduate. https://theintercept.com/2019/05/14/turkey-second-drone-age/ https://theintercept.com/2019/05/14/turkey-second-drone-age/
- sumanthvepa 7y agoI guess I am a somewhat neutral bystander here. I'm from India and the way I see it, these sorts of actions, will simply force China and Chinese companies to develop alternatives to US products. For the short to medium term these blacklists will hurt Chinese companies severely, perhaps even put some of them out of business. However, in the long term 15-20 years, I would imagine, China would have fully caught up with the US particularly on semiconductor design and fabrication. Once that happens, the dominance of the US tech stack will start to falter and eventually erode away. If I were the US govt., I would invest every available dollar and minute on building up a technological lead, because, oh boy it is going to need every last bit of advantage it can get. And even that may not be enough. For the world, this may not be a terrible outcome, (although don't get me wrong -- no trade war would be the best outcome.) . For one thing, it breaks monopolies across the tech stack from E-commerce all the way to semi-conductor manufacturing equipment. That competition between US and Chinese companies can only benefit the world. It's happening in 5G already.
- wideasleep1 7y ago"However, in the long term 15-20 years, I would imagine, China would have fully caught up with the US particularly on semiconductor design and fabrication. Once that happens, the dominance of the US tech stack will start to falter and eventually erode away. " Are you assuming the U.S. will sit stagnant during these 15-20 years? If China is 15-20 years behind currently, I doubt they will ever be at parity. Their best hope is a cultural revolution.
- derwiki 7y agoAm I being whooshed? They had a Cultural Revolution..
- devoply 7y agoUS was already shown to be behind in 5g, China is already caught up. Heck they even helped AMD catch up to Intel, and see what sort of major success that was ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD%E2%80%93Chinese_joint_venture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD%E2%80%93Chinese_joint_vent... ) . These moves are there to slow it down. But China can make other moves like moving tech knowledge from one company to others and play all sorts of games. Fact is knowledge despite what Americans want the world to believe, replicates and distributes powers in ways which are very difficult to stop. If China is not building it, they will move the knowledge to some ally which can build it. It's almost guaranteed at this point that we are already living in a bifurcated world where US will need to manufacture everything in other countries than China. And yet China's manufacturing edge is not going anywhere. They can clone any US product anyone else is producing and sell it to their trading bloc.
- ThinkBackTo 7y agoGiven the enormity of their population, one would expect they would have managed to come up with something. Honestly the world would be a far, far better place if the entire Chinese nation were to disappear off the surface of the earth. (Edit: since Chinese trolls have been down voting me, I will reply here to the comment below: clearly by the Chinese nation I was talking about the 1.3 billion in China. There shouldn't be any moral qualms in their case. Enlightened people and brainwashed people are not moral equals, just as humans and chickens are not)
- ETHisso2017 7y ago>the world would be a far, far better place if the entire Chinese nation were to disappear off the surface of the earth. Really? I find this argument hard to believe. Also this is what I worry about. The US China conflict has a real likelihood of becoming a full on race war against Chinese people in America, thanks to sentiments like the one above.
- zaroth 7y agoI think we can all agree sentiments like that are repugnant regardless of how you feel about the political system, human rights abuses, IP theft & protection, environmental rights, etc. of your trading partners.
- dang 7y agoI appreciate the mildness of your response to that provocation, but it's a garden variety troll whom we've banned many times. Please just flag and move on.
- ETHisso2017 7y agoI can't flag comments for some reason. Is there JS I need to load?
- dang 7y agoFor comments, you have to go to where the flag link appears. Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html#cflag https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html#cflag. It's done that way as a speed bump to discourage reflexive flagging. An old PG trick.
- de_watcher 7y agoSamaritan targets AI startups.
- romeo1978 7y agoUsing political means instead of fair competition in the market is not only showing the hegemony of the US, but also showing that the US technology is not confident.
- anon34568911 7y agoDoesn't the trade war actually benefit all involved countries? This could just be a hidden deal between governments to massively increase the tax income under the cover of a trade war.
- Mbaqanga 7y agoWouldn't be more effective to target parts of their economy that hurts they're most vulnerable members of society and spread from there? They could potentially start a mainland revolt really forcing their hand.
- some1else 7y agoI wonder how much worse this is for US vendors, than it is for China?
- burgerc 7y agoI wonder how many of you actually have been to China and spent sometime there?
- TheEndin 7y agoI mean, today you have a functional democracy building your hardware/software while allowing others such as South Korea and Japan to fight toe to toe in the tech environment. In the future you will have a foreign authoritarian dictatorship stealing yours and everyone's IP making sure that India and others can never compete with their interests. You will be using cameras and other IT tools with backdoor ensuring that they can keep tabs on every Indian so that they can use that data to blackmail and exert power on your government. Yesterday it was the Hun under Mao, then Tibet, today it is the Uighurs, tomorrow it is their own population and yours.