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>Look at countries that fell into the US sphere of influence... Europe, South Korea. Things aren't to bad in those places huh? Here in Europe we are very thank

>Look at countries that fell into the US sphere of influence... Europe, South Korea. Things aren't to bad in those places huh? Here in Europe we are very thankful, if it wasn't for America we would still be a third world country living in tents. Thanks for democracy, freedom, art, philosophy, medicine and so on. I only wish Europe had any of the smart minds that you have, maybe we could come up with them. Oh wait...

DuskStar 7y ago
I'm pretty sure that without the US, the 20th century would have seen Europe united under either Nazi Germany or the USSR...
- resters 7y ago
  True, and as upsetting as it is for Americans to hear this, chances are Europe would be at least as pluralistic and free as it is today had either of those happened.
  - DuskStar 7y ago
    In the counterfactual where the Soviets conquered Europe, I could easily see the USSR surviving to today... No liberal democracies on their borders to compare with, no need for a huge military on the western border, and increased resources would go a long way.
    - baq 7y ago
      It’d still crumble under its own weight due to corruption and lack of mid-level society bonding factors like corporations, unions, gatherings, etc. China managed to navigate this mess somewhat successfully until it was technically possible to implement social engineering on a scale previously unheard of with their great firewall and social score. Compute power enables their selective repression system.
    - kelnos 7y ago
      What makes you think the USSR would have been more successful had it been stretched even more thinly, across a much larger land area and population, where the vast majority of those people would hate their occupation overlords?
- kelnos 7y ago
  True. No one is suggesting here that the US is 100% bad. South Korea is an example of a place where things worked out pretty well due in large part to US intervention, just like WWII (though there's an argument to be made that the US got involved much later than it should have). But... is that it? How does that balance out Vietnam, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Afghanistan (80s and today), Iraq, Kuwait, etc.? On the whole, I believe US interventionism has been a net negative on societies we've interfered with.
throw51319 7y ago
Uh that's not even what I'm saying. Of course Europe itself contributed to it's success and wellbeing too. I was saying the alternative of Nazi or Soviet influence probably would not have turned out as well. Also using your train of thought, because the Nazis made scientific advancements they are "good"? I was saying that whatever system the US promoted after WW2, it worked out pretty well for most of us. Europe and the US have protected press, free thought, science advancements. People can watch/read what they want. There are problems but it's def a collection of good societies. So idk what your issue is?

DuskStar 7y ago

I'm pretty sure that without the US, the 20th century would have seen Europe united under either Nazi Germany or the USSR...

resters 7y ago
True, and as upsetting as it is for Americans to hear this, chances are Europe would be at least as pluralistic and free as it is today had either of those happened.
- DuskStar 7y ago
  In the counterfactual where the Soviets conquered Europe, I could easily see the USSR surviving to today... No liberal democracies on their borders to compare with, no need for a huge military on the western border, and increased resources would go a long way.
  - baq 7y ago
    It’d still crumble under its own weight due to corruption and lack of mid-level society bonding factors like corporations, unions, gatherings, etc. China managed to navigate this mess somewhat successfully until it was technically possible to implement social engineering on a scale previously unheard of with their great firewall and social score. Compute power enables their selective repression system.
  - kelnos 7y ago
    What makes you think the USSR would have been more successful had it been stretched even more thinly, across a much larger land area and population, where the vast majority of those people would hate their occupation overlords?
kelnos 7y ago
True. No one is suggesting here that the US is 100% bad. South Korea is an example of a place where things worked out pretty well due in large part to US intervention, just like WWII (though there's an argument to be made that the US got involved much later than it should have). But... is that it? How does that balance out Vietnam, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Afghanistan (80s and today), Iraq, Kuwait, etc.? On the whole, I believe US interventionism has been a net negative on societies we've interfered with.

throw51319 7y ago

Uh that's not even what I'm saying. Of course Europe itself contributed to it's success and wellbeing too. I was saying the alternative of Nazi or Soviet influence probably would not have turned out as well. Also using your train of thought, because the Nazis made scientific advancements they are "good"? I was saying that whatever system the US promoted after WW2, it worked out pretty well for most of us. Europe and the US have protected press, free thought, science advancements. People can watch/read what they want. There are problems but it's def a collection of good societies. So idk what your issue is?