4 ms·

Brainwashing millions of people is a terrible thing to do, but I don't believe it is on the same level of atrocity than genocide and mass murdering. Nazis did

Brainwashing millions of people is a terrible thing to do, but I don't believe it is on the same level of atrocity than genocide and mass murdering. Nazis did not try to "assimilate" Jews by forcing them to reject their religion and traditions, and by forcing weddings between aryan and jews (could you imagine that ?).

Grangar 7y ago
There have been reports of Mengele-tier experimenting on Uyghur prisoners such as unsedated organ transplants. If these are true I'd say it's already on the same level vertically and only has horizontal scale left to exceed.
corodra 7y ago
Do... do you actually believe those are simply "re-education" camps? I mean, they're as much re-education as Auschwitz was a weight-loss camp. It's not going to be the first time when "Oh, this isn't a bad place for these people. We're trying to help them. That's all we're doing... NO CAMERAS!" Like, I'm having a stroke right now. You need to read some history. Let's see: Japan Unit 731, the "Congo Free State" under the Belgians, the Russian gulags in general (fun part, they imprisoned their WW2 vets because they came in contact with western ideals thus needed their own re-education program). The cover up for the Armenian genocide is another cluster fuck. Shit, what else... How about something more recent. Sudan covering up the Darfur genocide in 2003. This is just off the top of my head. Oh right, and the 30+ million Mao had killed. Kind of forgot about that little Chinese gem. I mean seriously. I'd give the benefit of the doubt to Hamas with Jewish prisoners before I'd give it to a communist regime.
- ddrdrck_ 7y ago
  Do you really believe that all the people actually incarcerated in these "re-education camps" will actually be killed directly or indirectly (forced labour, starvation) ? If it is the case then I agree it would be comparable to holocaust or other genocides. But it is not what is happening at the moment, and I am convinced it won't happen (there has been no mass murdering in Tibet afaik)
  - corodra 7y ago
    Yes if given the chance. Economically it's actually difficult to do so, as the Germans and Soviets learned. If you don't have to hide, it makes it even easier. And denial rhetoric, which has never changed, helps them greatly in achieving that goal. "Well, we don't have evidence that these camps involve killings. So, we're not going to investigate it. We're going to do business as usual." As a Polish-American, here's a fun one. Look up Jan Karski. The dude that personally witnessed the extermination camp atrocities, escaped and reported to Western Allies in WW2. Even met with FDR. Supreme Court Justice Felix Frankfurter who heard the reports, "I did not say that he was lying, I said that I could not believe him. There is a difference." Saying you don't believe someone is the same as thinking they're lying. "I believe you, I just don't think you're telling the truth." Doesn't make sense. "I don't believe you, but I think you're telling the truth". Doesn't make sense either. But this is why I get fired up to all Hell about this stuff. You don't want to believe it. Look up BBC reports of interviews with people who got out of these camps in China. I mean, if there's organ harvesting, I highly doubt they're waiting for a natural death. That's all we know right now. It's supremely hard to believe it can stop there. History never, ever changes. It's just different names, different faces and different blood spilled. But it's always the same stories and the same lies.
elliekelly 7y ago
I agree, while not ideal, the Chinese government's control over the media is not on the same level of atrocity as genocide and mass murder. I was referring to Chinese government's mass incarceration of ethnic minorities and the forced labor and (allegedly) unsedated harvesting of their organs. A few previous HN discussions about these topics: - Organ Harvesting https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18674885 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18674885 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20249489 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20249489 - Forced Detention of Ethnic Minorities https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18564433 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18564433 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18184369 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18184369 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19826846 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19826846
- ddrdrck_ 7y ago
  I was referring to "Chinese government's mass incarceration of ethnic minorities". The purpose of these camps is to brainwash these people so they lose their ethnic (muslim) identity and do not even think about rebellion. This is terrible and horrible, especially children separated from their parents, most probably for ever. But once again it is a totally different "evil" than what Nazis did. It would be closer to what North Korea did to their entire population. Organ harvesting is a different issue, it certainly happens in Xinjiang but also in any other place in China where there is prisoners. I mean, China government did not put in place all these camps just for taking organs or for forced labor, from an economic perspective it would be a nonsense.
  - corodra 7y ago
    I'll say, I was a bit of a dick to you in my response. So sorry. You clarified your stance a bit. But, you're falling into the trap. Every time "re-education" camps have popped up in history, bad things happened. Very bad things. You don't give the benefit of the doubt to this. The organization in question always claimed the whole "we're just helping" and other bullshit. Ever meet a habitual liar? Someone that just lies and twists facts constantly. Even when they don't have to. Gives you an aneurysm from having to deal with their constant bullshit? It's more for their own sociopathic dominance ego rather than just the situation's consequences. But they just twist and manipulate every fact or try to skirt around issues with rhetoric. A reason why lots of folks hate lawyers, because that's literally their job to re-interpret facts and laws to suite an outcome (yes, not all lawyers are like that, a bit of a generalization, but it's to communicate a point). That is what is happening here. They're not detainment camps, we are re-educating people here, to be proper Chinese citizens. No, Chinese people don't die here. This can be valid statement and millions of people could be buried under the floor boards. China has a wonderful practice of making people "non-people" or we westerners would just view that concept as "non-Chinese". One example was during the 1 child policy, child 2, 3 and so on, wouldn't be granted Chinese citizenship, even though they were born in China, by Chinese parents. So, if you have an ethnic group you don't consider Chinese, because you can "take that away"... well of course they don't kill or harvest from Chinese people! This is how communists communicate. This is soviet old hat doctrine. There are no Russian spies in America. Yes, because technically they're Soviets. There is no problem with any Russian nuclear power plants. Yea, because it was in the Ukraine. Or how about a shit ton of that denial from the recent blast in August until forced to admit it? Got to love their wording though on the people killed: “A bright memory of our comrades will forever live in our hearts." They died in an explosion... bright memory...that's fucked up by the way. Lying without lying. We all use to make fun of this shit in the 90s and early 2000s. What happened in the 2010s? How did we all forget that communist regimes are the best at double speak? The only way to deal with this is call out their bullshit for exactly what it is and not back down.
wbl 7y ago
It's still genocide under the definition in the genocide convention.

Grangar 7y ago

There have been reports of Mengele-tier experimenting on Uyghur prisoners such as unsedated organ transplants. If these are true I'd say it's already on the same level vertically and only has horizontal scale left to exceed.

corodra 7y ago

Do... do you actually believe those are simply "re-education" camps? I mean, they're as much re-education as Auschwitz was a weight-loss camp. It's not going to be the first time when "Oh, this isn't a bad place for these people. We're trying to help them. That's all we're doing... NO CAMERAS!" Like, I'm having a stroke right now. You need to read some history. Let's see: Japan Unit 731, the "Congo Free State" under the Belgians, the Russian gulags in general (fun part, they imprisoned their WW2 vets because they came in contact with western ideals thus needed their own re-education program). The cover up for the Armenian genocide is another cluster fuck. Shit, what else... How about something more recent. Sudan covering up the Darfur genocide in 2003. This is just off the top of my head. Oh right, and the 30+ million Mao had killed. Kind of forgot about that little Chinese gem. I mean seriously. I'd give the benefit of the doubt to Hamas with Jewish prisoners before I'd give it to a communist regime.

ddrdrck_ 7y ago
Do you really believe that all the people actually incarcerated in these "re-education camps" will actually be killed directly or indirectly (forced labour, starvation) ? If it is the case then I agree it would be comparable to holocaust or other genocides. But it is not what is happening at the moment, and I am convinced it won't happen (there has been no mass murdering in Tibet afaik)
- corodra 7y ago
  Yes if given the chance. Economically it's actually difficult to do so, as the Germans and Soviets learned. If you don't have to hide, it makes it even easier. And denial rhetoric, which has never changed, helps them greatly in achieving that goal. "Well, we don't have evidence that these camps involve killings. So, we're not going to investigate it. We're going to do business as usual." As a Polish-American, here's a fun one. Look up Jan Karski. The dude that personally witnessed the extermination camp atrocities, escaped and reported to Western Allies in WW2. Even met with FDR. Supreme Court Justice Felix Frankfurter who heard the reports, "I did not say that he was lying, I said that I could not believe him. There is a difference." Saying you don't believe someone is the same as thinking they're lying. "I believe you, I just don't think you're telling the truth." Doesn't make sense. "I don't believe you, but I think you're telling the truth". Doesn't make sense either. But this is why I get fired up to all Hell about this stuff. You don't want to believe it. Look up BBC reports of interviews with people who got out of these camps in China. I mean, if there's organ harvesting, I highly doubt they're waiting for a natural death. That's all we know right now. It's supremely hard to believe it can stop there. History never, ever changes. It's just different names, different faces and different blood spilled. But it's always the same stories and the same lies.

elliekelly 7y ago

I agree, while not ideal, the Chinese government's control over the media is not on the same level of atrocity as genocide and mass murder. I was referring to Chinese government's mass incarceration of ethnic minorities and the forced labor and (allegedly) unsedated harvesting of their organs. A few previous HN discussions about these topics: - Organ Harvesting https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18674885 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18674885 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20249489 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20249489 - Forced Detention of Ethnic Minorities https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18564433 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18564433 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18184369 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18184369 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19826846 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19826846

ddrdrck_ 7y ago
I was referring to "Chinese government's mass incarceration of ethnic minorities". The purpose of these camps is to brainwash these people so they lose their ethnic (muslim) identity and do not even think about rebellion. This is terrible and horrible, especially children separated from their parents, most probably for ever. But once again it is a totally different "evil" than what Nazis did. It would be closer to what North Korea did to their entire population. Organ harvesting is a different issue, it certainly happens in Xinjiang but also in any other place in China where there is prisoners. I mean, China government did not put in place all these camps just for taking organs or for forced labor, from an economic perspective it would be a nonsense.
- corodra 7y ago
  I'll say, I was a bit of a dick to you in my response. So sorry. You clarified your stance a bit. But, you're falling into the trap. Every time "re-education" camps have popped up in history, bad things happened. Very bad things. You don't give the benefit of the doubt to this. The organization in question always claimed the whole "we're just helping" and other bullshit. Ever meet a habitual liar? Someone that just lies and twists facts constantly. Even when they don't have to. Gives you an aneurysm from having to deal with their constant bullshit? It's more for their own sociopathic dominance ego rather than just the situation's consequences. But they just twist and manipulate every fact or try to skirt around issues with rhetoric. A reason why lots of folks hate lawyers, because that's literally their job to re-interpret facts and laws to suite an outcome (yes, not all lawyers are like that, a bit of a generalization, but it's to communicate a point). That is what is happening here. They're not detainment camps, we are re-educating people here, to be proper Chinese citizens. No, Chinese people don't die here. This can be valid statement and millions of people could be buried under the floor boards. China has a wonderful practice of making people "non-people" or we westerners would just view that concept as "non-Chinese". One example was during the 1 child policy, child 2, 3 and so on, wouldn't be granted Chinese citizenship, even though they were born in China, by Chinese parents. So, if you have an ethnic group you don't consider Chinese, because you can "take that away"... well of course they don't kill or harvest from Chinese people! This is how communists communicate. This is soviet old hat doctrine. There are no Russian spies in America. Yes, because technically they're Soviets. There is no problem with any Russian nuclear power plants. Yea, because it was in the Ukraine. Or how about a shit ton of that denial from the recent blast in August until forced to admit it? Got to love their wording though on the people killed: “A bright memory of our comrades will forever live in our hearts." They died in an explosion... bright memory...that's fucked up by the way. Lying without lying. We all use to make fun of this shit in the 90s and early 2000s. What happened in the 2010s? How did we all forget that communist regimes are the best at double speak? The only way to deal with this is call out their bullshit for exactly what it is and not back down.

wbl 7y ago

It's still genocide under the definition in the genocide convention.