4 ms·

There are very solid reasons for seeing marriage as a life-long commitment between a man and a woman for the purpose of providing a stable home for the children

by cicero 7y ago

There are very solid reasons for seeing marriage as a life-long commitment between a man and a woman for the purpose of providing a stable home for the children that they conceive that has nothing to do with hating gays. This is something humans have understood for thousands of years, but only in my lifetime we seem to have forgotten.

groby_b 7y ago
No, there really aren't. The socioeconomic consequences of a couple are the socioeconomic consequences of a couple, no matter the dangly bits. We're not all having children. It also turns out raising children also is not negatively affected by the parents being gay. (Plenty of studies on the subject, go read some). Leaves actually having children. Is your argument that we all should breed? Then your argument is seriously broken, the world is about 300% over capacity already. So, no - it's still rooted in hate. (Or fear, really)
- whatshisface 7y ago
  You're providing counter-arguments against the correctness of the argument the parent suggested, but otherwise good people can believe incorrect arguments. You can't assume that someone was aware of all those studies, some of which have been conducted in the years since, and none of which are taught about in elementary school. It is not sufficient to demonstrate that the Mozilla CEO believed something incorrect, you also have to demonstrate that evil was the only explanation.
  - damnyou 7y ago
    This is a common misconception which reduces structural discrimination to individual resentment. In reality, it does not matter at all whether the actor had evil in their heart — it only matters what the effects are (ability to adopt, hospital visitation rights, ability to immigrate etc).
    - whatshisface 7y ago
      Being right about everything that matters is an unreasonable standard to hold people to, because nobody is right about everything that matters. I guarantee that you and I are both mistaken in ways that cause us to support sub-optimal policies whose effects legitimately hurt people. If we keep open minds, we may even realize some of these errors in the future - unless we're just wrong so we can be evil, which is why there's a distinction between "wrong" and "purposely wrong in order to be evil."
    - erikpukinskis 7y ago
      I agree with you, but this is a truly unpopular opinion. People REALLY hate the idea that they’re responsible for things they haven’t even conceived of.
      - whatshisface 7y ago
        In your life, how do you handle the guilt for your countless unknowing political sins? Does it look exactly the same as what you would do if you didn't think you were guilty?
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
        erikpukinskis 7y ago
        I don’t do much with the unknowing ones. With newly known ones, I feel bad, and then I try to understand how I could be better. I’m not sure I understand your question.
- tsegratis 7y ago
  Just took your advice [0]: A comprehensive study published in the Medical Journal of Australia shows children raised in same-sex-parented families do as well as children raised by heterosexual couple parents... However, the study did find that young people who expressed diversity in their sexual orientation or gender identity experienced some of the highest rates of psychological distress in Australia, said the study’s senior author, Prof Frank Oberklaid. “Young LGBTIQ+ people are much more likely to experience poor mental health, self-harm and suicide than other young people, “ he said. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/oct/23/children-raised-by-same-sex-parents-do-as-well-as-their-peers-study-shows https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/oct/23/child... -- Closing the gap between what we want, what we're told, and reality, is really tricky The authors say they aimed to show, and found no harm at-all from gay parenting; and that is their conclusion. But it is hard to draw easy conclusions, even just from their own words
  - groby_b 7y ago
    Are you really that dense, or do you just want to argue a strawman? This is talking about young LGBTQI+ people being distressed, not about gay marriage. Yes, people who express their diversity feel stressed - because they're surrounded by bigots. Who distort the truth wherever they can. Even if it requires completely distorting study results.
mola 7y ago
I still don't understand, how would gays being allow to marry have an effect on hetero marriges? By the way today a man and a man, or a woman and a woman, or whatever, can have children , and in that case should provide a stable home for them. In my country most gay couples that bother about marrying, usually also want to raise children and provide them with a stable home. This' "gays" are destroying family values', is a silly fallacy, because these marrying gays, WANT a family. Saying Your family is OK and their family is somehow dangerous reeks of hate. . The point is that differentiating between a gay couple and a straight couple on anything (other their sex organs) is just absurd and without any hold in reality. Even if there was a significant difference between these couple regarding child rearing, the burden of proof is on you. The fact that marriage between man and woman is old and known doesn't mean it is good, or better than other types of couples. Most people who assume this difference, assume it a priori to any knowledge or facts. People who want to limit others because of ignorance is called hatred in my book, even if some of your best friends are gay...
arielserafini 7y ago
so before getting married a couple has to sign a contract expressing that they will conceive children, otherwise be stripped from their married status? It's curious that I've never seen anyone campaining against childless marriages, only against gay marriages.
damnyou 7y ago
So nonbinary people shouldn't be able to marry at all? Your simplified model falls apart the moment it meets the real world.
monocasa 7y ago
My 20 something cousin had emergency surgery that resulted in a hysterectomy. She can never have children. According to your argument she shouldn't get married either?

by cicero 7y ago

groby_b 7y ago

No, there really aren't. The socioeconomic consequences of a couple are the socioeconomic consequences of a couple, no matter the dangly bits. We're not all having children. It also turns out raising children also is not negatively affected by the parents being gay. (Plenty of studies on the subject, go read some). Leaves actually having children. Is your argument that we all should breed? Then your argument is seriously broken, the world is about 300% over capacity already. So, no - it's still rooted in hate. (Or fear, really)

whatshisface 7y ago
You're providing counter-arguments against the correctness of the argument the parent suggested, but otherwise good people can believe incorrect arguments. You can't assume that someone was aware of all those studies, some of which have been conducted in the years since, and none of which are taught about in elementary school. It is not sufficient to demonstrate that the Mozilla CEO believed something incorrect, you also have to demonstrate that evil was the only explanation.
- damnyou 7y ago
  This is a common misconception which reduces structural discrimination to individual resentment. In reality, it does not matter at all whether the actor had evil in their heart — it only matters what the effects are (ability to adopt, hospital visitation rights, ability to immigrate etc).
  - whatshisface 7y ago
    Being right about everything that matters is an unreasonable standard to hold people to, because nobody is right about everything that matters. I guarantee that you and I are both mistaken in ways that cause us to support sub-optimal policies whose effects legitimately hurt people. If we keep open minds, we may even realize some of these errors in the future - unless we're just wrong so we can be evil, which is why there's a distinction between "wrong" and "purposely wrong in order to be evil."
  - erikpukinskis 7y ago
    I agree with you, but this is a truly unpopular opinion. People REALLY hate the idea that they’re responsible for things they haven’t even conceived of.
    - whatshisface 7y ago
      In your life, how do you handle the guilt for your countless unknowing political sins? Does it look exactly the same as what you would do if you didn't think you were guilty?
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - erikpukinskis 7y ago
        I don’t do much with the unknowing ones. With newly known ones, I feel bad, and then I try to understand how I could be better. I’m not sure I understand your question.
tsegratis 7y ago
Just took your advice [0]: A comprehensive study published in the Medical Journal of Australia shows children raised in same-sex-parented families do as well as children raised by heterosexual couple parents... However, the study did find that young people who expressed diversity in their sexual orientation or gender identity experienced some of the highest rates of psychological distress in Australia, said the study’s senior author, Prof Frank Oberklaid. “Young LGBTIQ+ people are much more likely to experience poor mental health, self-harm and suicide than other young people, “ he said. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/oct/23/children-raised-by-same-sex-parents-do-as-well-as-their-peers-study-shows https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/oct/23/child... -- Closing the gap between what we want, what we're told, and reality, is really tricky The authors say they aimed to show, and found no harm at-all from gay parenting; and that is their conclusion. But it is hard to draw easy conclusions, even just from their own words
- groby_b 7y ago
  Are you really that dense, or do you just want to argue a strawman? This is talking about young LGBTQI+ people being distressed, not about gay marriage. Yes, people who express their diversity feel stressed - because they're surrounded by bigots. Who distort the truth wherever they can. Even if it requires completely distorting study results.

mola 7y ago

I still don't understand, how would gays being allow to marry have an effect on hetero marriges? By the way today a man and a man, or a woman and a woman, or whatever, can have children , and in that case should provide a stable home for them. In my country most gay couples that bother about marrying, usually also want to raise children and provide them with a stable home. This' "gays" are destroying family values', is a silly fallacy, because these marrying gays, WANT a family. Saying Your family is OK and their family is somehow dangerous reeks of hate. . The point is that differentiating between a gay couple and a straight couple on anything (other their sex organs) is just absurd and without any hold in reality. Even if there was a significant difference between these couple regarding child rearing, the burden of proof is on you. The fact that marriage between man and woman is old and known doesn't mean it is good, or better than other types of couples. Most people who assume this difference, assume it a priori to any knowledge or facts. People who want to limit others because of ignorance is called hatred in my book, even if some of your best friends are gay...

arielserafini 7y ago

so before getting married a couple has to sign a contract expressing that they will conceive children, otherwise be stripped from their married status? It's curious that I've never seen anyone campaining against childless marriages, only against gay marriages.

damnyou 7y ago

So nonbinary people shouldn't be able to marry at all? Your simplified model falls apart the moment it meets the real world.

monocasa 7y ago

My 20 something cousin had emergency surgery that resulted in a hysterectomy. She can never have children. According to your argument she shouldn't get married either?