6 ms·

Who has got more information here, you, who has no idea what the OP is selling, or OP who is actually selling the thing? "I simply don't believe" is not a grea

by enlyth 7y ago

Who has got more information here, you, who has no idea what the OP is selling, or OP who is actually selling the thing? "I simply don't believe" is not a great argument, when the previous car insurance and painting analogies proved to me that you can conjure up a hypothetical interest of a blind person about anything.

foldr 7y ago
> previous car insurance and painting anecdotes proved to me that you can conjure up a hypothetical interest of a blind person about anything. These aren’t hypothetical! Blind people really are interested in both these things, as you can easily find out by googling — or just using your common sense. Like OP, you’re illustrating exactly why we need the ADA. People often have wildly inaccurate perceptions about what people with visual disabilities can or can’t do and about what they may or may not be interested in. If “I don’t think blind people would be into this” were a valid excuse, then virtually nothing would be accessible in practice. As the OP has already demonstrated that they have mistaken ideas about blind people, I’m not willing to take their word for it that they have some kind of special product which couldn’t possibly be of interest to the visually impaired. They are free to reveal what they actually sell, if they think they have a slam dunk case.
- enlyth 7y ago
  My problem is that everyone in these threads acts like this all takes zero effort. There's no "turn on a11y" switch, you have to dedicate resources, money and time. It's a perfectly valid complaint from someone that sells a product which is generally not interesting to blind people (you seem to think this is an impossibility, or that one edge case outlier invalidates this reality), to not want to do this if it will bring no new business and make no-one's life easier.
  - foldr 7y ago
    Selling stuff requires complying with lots of laws that take time, money and effort to comply with. I don't know why you keep referring to "edge cases" and "outliers". The two actual examples that the OP has given do not meet this description.
  - UncleMeat 7y ago
    Not having security vulns in your software costs money. A large number of users aren't actually harmed by vulns or don't care about them. But if you went around saying that really it isn't important to fix vulns since they don't affect that many people you'd be rightly raked over the coals. "It is expensive" isn't an excuse.
- CathedralBorrow 7y ago
  > Like OP, you’re illustrating exactly why we need the ADA. Firmly agree. It's amazing to see how many cling to the view that people with disabilities are this alien group of "others" that think differently and are probably only interested in things for disabled people.
- esyir 7y ago
  Sure, you can find blind people with intense interest in visual media. There have to be a few out there. However, a quick google (as you requested) on the art topic seems to indicate that art targeted at the blind is rarely of the painting variety, but of a more tactile sort. This... would not be appreciated in many museums, where touching the exhibits is typically discouraged (Admittedly, audio enjoyment of visual art does exist). I'm really sick of the argument by outlier where a generally true statement is countered by an outlier case as though that invalidates the whole statement.
  - foldr 7y ago
    I think you are forgetting the existence of partially sighted people. Most people who use screen readers can see. There wouldn't be anything odd or unexpected about such people being interested in paintings or other visual art forms. On top of that, many people who are fully blind were not blind from birth, and so are about as likely to be interested in visual arts as anyone else.
    - esyir 7y ago
      I considered them, but blind enough to appreciate visual art but too blind to use a webpage seems like a rather narrow group to me. It's one of those things where I would very much need evidence accept.
      - foldr 7y ago
        >I considered them, By which you mean, you decided without actually asking any of them or doing any investigation that a certain group of people don’t appreciate visual art. The vast majority of people using screen readers have some degree of vision. I would not assume that they have no appreciation of visual art. The ADA is needed because people have so many assumptions about people with disabilities that they don’t bother to verify.
        esyir 7y ago
        And I ask of you. How many are there. How large is this population. If you support regulation, give numbers to back it up. The absence of regulation is the default state, and to introduce some should require not a feel good statement, but a concrete estimate of how much impact it will have vs the potential cost. You don't need to convince me that it would make some people's life better. That could be said of any expense made on somebody's behalf. You have to show that the cost-benefit ratio makes sense.
CathedralBorrow 7y ago
It's not only the information about the thing OP is selling, it's also the information about blind people OP seems to be lacking. Like, how can anyone state that "blind people aren't interested in this" seriously? Like there exists a bullet list of things that blind people like.

by enlyth 7y ago

foldr 7y ago

> previous car insurance and painting anecdotes proved to me that you can conjure up a hypothetical interest of a blind person about anything. These aren’t hypothetical! Blind people really are interested in both these things, as you can easily find out by googling — or just using your common sense. Like OP, you’re illustrating exactly why we need the ADA. People often have wildly inaccurate perceptions about what people with visual disabilities can or can’t do and about what they may or may not be interested in. If “I don’t think blind people would be into this” were a valid excuse, then virtually nothing would be accessible in practice. As the OP has already demonstrated that they have mistaken ideas about blind people, I’m not willing to take their word for it that they have some kind of special product which couldn’t possibly be of interest to the visually impaired. They are free to reveal what they actually sell, if they think they have a slam dunk case.

enlyth 7y ago
My problem is that everyone in these threads acts like this all takes zero effort. There's no "turn on a11y" switch, you have to dedicate resources, money and time. It's a perfectly valid complaint from someone that sells a product which is generally not interesting to blind people (you seem to think this is an impossibility, or that one edge case outlier invalidates this reality), to not want to do this if it will bring no new business and make no-one's life easier.
- foldr 7y ago
  Selling stuff requires complying with lots of laws that take time, money and effort to comply with. I don't know why you keep referring to "edge cases" and "outliers". The two actual examples that the OP has given do not meet this description.
- UncleMeat 7y ago
  Not having security vulns in your software costs money. A large number of users aren't actually harmed by vulns or don't care about them. But if you went around saying that really it isn't important to fix vulns since they don't affect that many people you'd be rightly raked over the coals. "It is expensive" isn't an excuse.
CathedralBorrow 7y ago
> Like OP, you’re illustrating exactly why we need the ADA. Firmly agree. It's amazing to see how many cling to the view that people with disabilities are this alien group of "others" that think differently and are probably only interested in things for disabled people.
esyir 7y ago
Sure, you can find blind people with intense interest in visual media. There have to be a few out there. However, a quick google (as you requested) on the art topic seems to indicate that art targeted at the blind is rarely of the painting variety, but of a more tactile sort. This... would not be appreciated in many museums, where touching the exhibits is typically discouraged (Admittedly, audio enjoyment of visual art does exist). I'm really sick of the argument by outlier where a generally true statement is countered by an outlier case as though that invalidates the whole statement.
- foldr 7y ago
  I think you are forgetting the existence of partially sighted people. Most people who use screen readers can see. There wouldn't be anything odd or unexpected about such people being interested in paintings or other visual art forms. On top of that, many people who are fully blind were not blind from birth, and so are about as likely to be interested in visual arts as anyone else.
  - esyir 7y ago
    I considered them, but blind enough to appreciate visual art but too blind to use a webpage seems like a rather narrow group to me. It's one of those things where I would very much need evidence accept.
    - foldr 7y ago
      >I considered them, By which you mean, you decided without actually asking any of them or doing any investigation that a certain group of people don’t appreciate visual art. The vast majority of people using screen readers have some degree of vision. I would not assume that they have no appreciation of visual art. The ADA is needed because people have so many assumptions about people with disabilities that they don’t bother to verify.
      - esyir 7y ago
        And I ask of you. How many are there. How large is this population. If you support regulation, give numbers to back it up. The absence of regulation is the default state, and to introduce some should require not a feel good statement, but a concrete estimate of how much impact it will have vs the potential cost. You don't need to convince me that it would make some people's life better. That could be said of any expense made on somebody's behalf. You have to show that the cost-benefit ratio makes sense.

CathedralBorrow 7y ago

It's not only the information about the thing OP is selling, it's also the information about blind people OP seems to be lacking. Like, how can anyone state that "blind people aren't interested in this" seriously? Like there exists a bullet list of things that blind people like.